You don't believe in God anymore? I remember arguing with you a few years ago; do you?

I was deeply sad to read that you may have lost your faith, Ian. But then religion is always a choice. Faith is an activity of the conscious mind. And everyone has the right to act upon it in his/her own inclinations.

I still stand by my faith, though I understand that your points are valid. I still think that there are a lot of things that may not be understood. the brain has its limit. and what we may not understand, we can just belive in it. I may not have the capacity to prove the existence of God to you, but I can surely feel He does exist.

"Credo quia absurdum".

I also have atheist friends and they too (like you) are great individuals. and they too are still my friends even after their conversion. 

Have a great day buddy! 

Ian, you said it all - it must be accepted by faith.  As I said, I won't get into a big discussion over that.  I was however willing to provide medical proof that someone should have been dead.  The fact that I prayed for my uncle and he came back to life and gave his heart to God?  That is by faith.  Or these tumors, melanoma, etc...it is by faith.  You know the scripture - 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 -  ²⁷But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 ²⁸And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

 ²⁹That no flesh should glory in his presence.

You are 100% correct - must be accepted by faith.  I have to leave it there Ian :-)  Have a great day!

How about that is possible under natural conditions from the body and doctors couldn't explain why this rare occurance happened? How about people with different religious beliefs or none at all managing the same sorts of things?

How about you show me someone with downs syndrome or other such disease that couldn't possibly be healed naturally and are not simply eyewitness account claims from religious nut jobs as in the Azusa street study case.

My mum was once told by doctors should couldn't get pregnant, but she met dad one night and you know what happens and my little brother came from it. She never prayed for it or expected it. What this means, is doctors don't always know the reasons or just get the diagnosis wrong.

But as i said, something as impossible to happen withour divine help as downs syndrome, parkinsons disease, hutchisons disease, or actual evidence of someones limbs growing back on its own, would be far more plausible to an atheist as a possible real life God working miracle. Until then i remain skeptical about miracle claims and near death experiences as i have demonstrated why already.

@BB: "I will read Ian's posts, and hear his rants (I don't believe in YEC either, so he and I are in agreement on that)"

Rants? Hardly! If i was going to rant, i could do better then that in all honesty. You made the claims and i was simply responding to them Whether you accept the evidence i present or not is up to you. Glad you're not a creationist anymore though. What changed your view?

"you cannot use the flesh to accomplish that which is spiritual.  I have prayed for my pastor as well."  

Nice sentement if nothing else. If you feel praying works, go for it. But it means nothing much to me as i said anymore then someone wishing upon a star or praying to some of deity. Are you suggesting i am getting angry at you?

"I will read Ian's post, but unless he has a change of heart, I am not going to repost in discussion.  I will be here to listen instead :-)."

Read all you want. Just know I back my claims up so you don't simply have to believe what i say. I haven't met to many Christians who would actually listen with an "open mind" to what atheists say. But they insist on us atheists being closed minded because we ask for real evidence and not speculations and assertions.

Ian, not to open the can of worms, but I was going to offer many of the atheists doctor's records and all.  I know that isn't sufficient for you, but I was going to provide proof of a woman who should have been dead of melanoma 15 years ago.

Howbeit, none of the atheists wanted that proof.

Either way, I don't agree with every denomination either.  BUT - God never asked me to agree with everything taught out there in the name of Christ either.  He did teach me to "love thy neighbor as thyself".  My wife and I are going to visit a lot of different churches in 2012. 

Nic: "This is what the atheist exactly looking for from the believer, a chance to have (continuous) arguments about His existence with scientific proofs, and trying so hard to deny Him with every avenue possible."

I wasn't looking for a debate, but that don't mean you get to come onto my blog and make grand claims without evidence. If you make the claim it is upto you to demonstrate this claim is valid, not me. Yes science is useful for obvious reasons it actually works. It's not hard to deny God(s) exists when there is little to no evidence for it. So far i have presented actual evidence of my claims you have go and check for yourself. BB on the other hand has made claims he can't be so sure really are from God. No matter how much you try and claim its reasonable. You must simply believe by faith to accept it. As i said, this isn't good enough for me anymore. I am open to being wrong as long as you can do more then simply assert something as true but give me no real evidence or method of which i could say this might be true ect.

"But, he'll be back to God in His time, not ours"

My wife is hoping for the same since she is a devout Catholic. Except join her church. I will go to church with her, and even be ok with our kids going to church with us, but that don't mean i will blindly accept assertions or be quick to clasify something as a miraculous example of Gods healing. I have seen many claims such as that made which were investigated and proven not the case mths or yrs later.

Nic, I was not going to respond anymore.  I have already testified to God's truth.  However, I was praying this morning, and you confirmed what the Lord told me just a couple of minutes ago before I got out of the bed.  I will read Ian's posts, and hear his rants (I don't believe in YEC either, so he and I are in agreement on that).  I am sorry that he went through that.  I went through a pastor (a very good teacher of the Word) who was also a spiritual bully, and I went through two divorces in his church (in the name of God).  But the most important thing?  I learned the Word - and that is what has given me strength to make a stand for the truth to him.  He got VERY angry when I made a stand to him.  I wasn't mean, but I was stern, and he about threw a fit in public.  When someone warned him of what he was doing, he calmed down.  But the point is - you cannot use the flesh to accomplish that which is spiritual.  I have prayed for my pastor as well.  

I will read Ian's post, but unless he has a change of heart, I am not going to repost in discussion.  I will be here to listen instead :-).

Douglas, if I were you I would stop here, I would save my energy and would use it to 'fish' others to Jesus instead. There's no point arguing about this any further. This is what the atheist exactly looking for from the believer, a chance to have (continuous) arguments about His existence with scientific proofs, and trying so hard to deny Him with every avenue possible. It is a pity, but that's why we have to stop and don't follow their 'games'.

Ian - just like you've said - has had his heart hardened already, it is a very sad fact considering what he has done for Jesus in the past (Ian, you know exactly what I meant). But, he'll be back to God in His time, not ours. There's no benefit to bang his head with all these facts at the moment. You just add fuel and following his 'game'.

We've done our part, and now let God do the rest. Believe me He will act. 

"I guess tumors magically disappear after prayer - that is a normal thing, I think science can justify that, don't you?"

 Actually they can disappear suddenly and it has NOTHING to do with your prayers. It's rare but does happen even when people do not pray. These are just a few examples of such cases.

http://www.mayfieldclinic.com/PE-Pit.htm 

http://www.medicinenet.com/sarcoidosis/article.htm

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/sep/the-body-can-stave-off-terminal-cancer-sometimes

"I guess since you don't take testimonies, you cannot take any scientific evidence either, since that is testimonies too?"

I guess you haven't studied up on peoples false testimonies have you? Read these Birdbrain.

http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

http://www.simplypsychology.org/eyewitness-testimony.html

Scientific evidence has to go through the scientific method, which is why DNA evidence and other such factors are used as primary evidence in court cases and NOT eyewitness accounts and also why science works far better then a bunch of claims made by supposed eyewitnesses who have no actual evidence to back up the claims. Also if you had bothered to look at the mass hallucination link you would see the mind can be tricked, but the scientific method weeds out those issues through testing things repeatedly to see if they get the same results and only after it has met this does it get accepted in mainstream science.

 "But science does an experiment - and we can take that?  You are picking and choosing what you want to believe."

Yes, because anyone who doubts it can test it for themselves. I'm not the one picking certain cures that are rare and neglecting to realize this same God doesn't cure a whole lot of other things EVER! So who is picking and choosing now ha? Just because people make claims of miraculous healing don't mean they are valid. Especially when medical help is obviously being used and people die when they don't get it more often then not. Again its never something no natural means could account for like Downs syndrome is it? Why not? God think less of them does he?

 "When you stand before God later, remember that you are held accountable for my testimony "

Pascals wager ha? For a start, there are at least 3,000 known religions in china alone and estimated maybe 10,000 religions that have existed or are existing in the world. Maybe 43 major versions, some say over 150 religions with over 1 million believers. That's not even including the large number of denominations and variations within the religions (Christians for example are about 33,800 different denominations) Some of which disagree on how true the others are as well. So your chances of being wrong providing you are even genuine about your faith and not superficial, are just as high a risk, and have as much chance of being wrong as us non believers denying all the religions and being right about no god existing at all. THINK ABOUT IT!.....

BirdBrain wrote; "Ian, Study Azusa street - even limbs grow back".

I did look it up. You never provided any legit sources for the claims that were made to start with. Did you know they were a cult religion that made massive claims to eyewitness things, yet nothing has been confirmed as legit claims? Did you know they had mediums, and other such people who attented as well? In short all of these things were clearly mass helucinations and general deceptive tactics by this group as many churches of that time stated it was not from God. Here are a couple of links on the subject which point to it being nothing but assertions.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=XjjdyNj-zsIC&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=scientists+examination+of+the+Azusa+Street&source=bl&ots=Ha6AGzJLac&sig=1eO7wLDY5BVS1nRc20440JDmWLw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=snfxTsugJY-ViAfEze3LAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing

And just so you understand more clearly why these claims are so ridiculous without actual evidence to prove the claims are true:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/mass_delusions_and_hysterias_highlights_from_the_past_millennium/

Ian, study Asuza Street - even limbs grew back.  Sorry that you have hardened your heart to the obvious fact that God can heal.  I see you have taken up the very stance that other atheists take (I'm not listening).  I guess tumors magically disappear after prayer - that is a normal thing, I think science can justify that, don't you?  

I guess since you don't take testimonies, you cannot take any scientific evidence either, since that is testimonies too?  God provides a miracle - well, that is invalid.  But science does an experiment - and we can take that?  You are picking and choosing what you want to believe.  I am sorry to hear that.  

Ian, I will let you be.  When you stand before God later, remember that you are held accountable for my testimony - I have told you of God's hand, and you dismissed it because of your hard heart.  I hope you can at least reconsider your hardness of heart.  You and I both know that tumors don't dry up instantly after prayer by coincidence. 

You're right, the facts speak for themselves and it isn't telling me God exists. Especially a theistic one. I don't claim to understand everything or have absolute knowledge, unlike theists who assert they KNOW the "truth" without ever being able to prove their version over the thousands of versions of god(s) out there.

About this near death experience claims. I have looked into it and found its unfounded for several reasons. One, being the brain is in trauma at the time and when it goes through such issues it hallucinates more easily and since most people are by nature religious or have been taught about religious ideas, they tend to visualise things that fit their minds concepts regarding death or gods ect. Here are some links on how science explains such effects and can in fact induce them with same results your friend had and better. The doctors were right, and his heart appearing to be better doesn't mean it has or is the same as it was before it happened. Here are some links explaining how it works from scientific perspective. Science is great at demystifying superstitious ideas.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/science-life-after-death.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/

So let me get this straight. God gives you a phone, but doesn't answer others prayers who are starved in other countries or have some other issue of violence that causes their death despite praying for protection?

Anyway thanks for trying to convince me, but as i keep telling you all, i didn't go into this position easily. I have put great thought into this.

We haven't even discussed how horrible the biblical and Qur'an God is yet or shown you how easy it is to show its man made ideaology from an ancient time before our modern understanding and methods showed how things really work.

P.S. I provide links like this so every one can check my sources, so you know i am not making unsubstantiated claims/assertions. I do that these days, i  even check to make sure the sources are legit/valid while i am at it.

 Healing testimonies are not valid to me Birdbrain, for the simply reason God NEVER cures something that no natural means, or science finding medical cures for doctors, or some other natural unexplained random chance couldn't have accounted for. Tumors can occasionally sort themselves out. Same with cancer, but usually doctors have played their part in doing so. These are just some example of what praying actually does without medical help. It

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133423/Nurse-faces-seek-offering-pray-sick-patient.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/25/tunisian-plane-crash-pilot-prayed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/07/couple-sentenced-daughter-prayer-death

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/219575/1/Boy-Dies-After-Choosing-Prayer-Over-Medicine-Former-member-of-church-calls-group-a-cult

I have also never seen someone being cured from Downs Syndrome, Hutchinson's disease, Cleidocranial dysostosis (which is the name of my condition) and many other disease i cannot remember the names of.

Also no actual scientific studies have shown prayer makes any difference. Case in point this example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

Lastly on the prayer issue BirdBrain; watch this video if you dare and show me why God supposedly heals some that medical help or natural random chance could account for, but not heal these many examples?

God Heals Amputees!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnI4eoSvwo

So unless your God has cured these things in the video, i have no reason to think any of the prayers to god do anything more then wishing upon a star mate.

Ian, just a couple of testimonies from a God who doesn't exist.  A man came to one of the churches I visited this Sunday, and he told that he had bad tumors in his brain.  This was in June or July.  The doctors were ready to give him an MRI the next day, crack open his skull to let his brain swell, and send Hospice home with him to help him die.  He got a group of preachers to start praying that night.  The next day, he went in for the MRI.  There were no tumors!  The same man, later this year, had many tumors also in his back.  (Almost reminds me of the story of Job!) But, the same thing - he got preachers together to pray for him.  When he went for his checkup, there were no tumors - they were gone.

I have a good friend who is a prophetess in the LORD.  Her gift of hearing the LORD is extremely strong.  I used to testify to her to the Atheists - they always wrote it off.  She told a pastor he would receive $50K within 90 days (he did) - the LORD is the one who told her that.  Recently, she has also become physically afflicted.  Of course, she is also in her 70's, and it is hard to expect the body to always remain perfect.  So, a Native American church (among others) began praying to God for her, and in the middle of the service, they heard the sound of rushing waters, as like a thunderstorm, in the church.  If you recall, the voice of the LORD is as the sound of many waters (Revelation 1:15).  Many of them did not know what it was, but the pastor did - she told them to bow in the presence of the LORD.

Ian, you can conveniently write these off just like all the other atheists who heard of testimonies of melanoma and gout drying up by prayer, etc.  I have got testimonies by the bushelful of a God who is alive and well.  

If you thought God was telling you where He came from, and it was anything other than that He has always been, you couldn't have been hearing from God, for that would mean He has been lying to the rest of the world, but decided to tell you something different.  He has always told mankind that he has always been.

In short, I know there are parts of the Bible you don't understand, and that is fine.  You can walk away from my short testimony of miracles just like all the other atheists - you can say "phooey" and let it be.  It doesn't change the fact that just because you say God is not real, that He is not.  There are things that you won't understand yet Ian.

I will leave you with this.  This is the same testimony I gave the atheists about the prophetess and her husband.  Her husband died a few years back - he had heart problems.  One day, he died for 22 minutes.  Joyce refused to accept his death, and began to pray in tongues.  The doctors thought either she was crazy, or she was foreign.

He was in heaven for those 22 minutes.  He was walking with Jesus, seeing things, etc.  After 22 minutes, Jesus turned to him and said, "Do you hear that?"  He said, "I hear my wife praying for me."  Jesus then said, "I cannot let you stay here - you have to go back."  He came back to life.  Long story short, his heart was very weak - however, he saw a vision of an angel giving him a new heart.  The doctors said he was hallucinating on the drugs, but when they did his test later, they found his heart was in much better shape!  

He eventually did pass away, and he begged his children not to tell his mother that he was about to go - he didn't want her to start praying for him!  He was ready to go home.  Of course, the LORD hid it from her too - He doesn't always show everything.  One day after he had passed, she was praying, and she found herself in a magnificent area - she was in her husband's mansion in heaven.  And he was there.  They talked for just a second, and she was back here on earth.

Ian, you can dismiss it and simply believe there is no God because you don't understand.  You can dismiss the last story even if you like as fantasy.  You can say the miracles were coincidence.  You can even say it was a coincidence the day I prayed and told God I would get a cell phone (He had told me for 2 months to buy a cell phone for ministry purposes), but He had to provide the first $100, since I could not afford it.  That was on a Saturday.  I came into work on Monday, and there was a card laying on my desk with $100 and a thank you from a customer.  I got my cell phone and thanked God for an answered prayer.

My wife has been told by doctors for years that she was unable to conceive - she used to sleep with others before she got saved, but never got pregnant.  Before I really started living for God, I was with a girl who was married to another man for years - she never got pregnant either!  But anyway - I told Margaret that God could give us a child according to His word.  We prayed for months - I even got desperate in my prayer.  Right after that - along came my beautiful son Noah.  He is now 5.5 months old, and has such a good spirit. 

I encourage you, Ian - study evolution if you like.  But if you turn from God, just because you don't understand, you are still held liable for what you know.  To leave the tree of life for a dry root doesn't make much sense.  I understand the confusion.  At least ask yourself this - how could a god who doesn't exist do what I testified to you about?  I have more testimonies, but I have already written so much.  God bless!

we still love you ian. i am praying for you.

Yeah, i never would have thought i would be an atheist either to be honest. I didn't choose to be an atheist to be popular or anything like that. I just couldn't rationally justify a good reason to accept it anymore. No evidence for God and plenty going against it. Not to mention i found science far more reasonable in answering many of those questions that were once solely seen as the divine hand of god(s).

I think its a combination of science, reasoning and the extreme behavior of religious belief's that is causing non belief all over the world to increase.

In Surveys conducted comparing non religious and religious groups they have shown that non religious are better educated and have a higher degree of intelligence over all, then their religious counterparts. In fact, i think only about 15% of the scientists are believers in god(s) of some kind globally. So there is definitely some correlation there over all. NOT saying religious people are all uneducated idiots. Just noticing a common theme/trend here. Secular countries are shown to be more moral then those of more religious nations, have less crime over all and generally more tolerant of others views as well.

Oh yeah, before i forget. Apparently non religious know more about religion over all then, the religious as well. How funny is that.

I never thought I'd hear this from you. Welcome to the club, I suppose...

Secular humanism and agnostic atheism (after viewing your links) summarize how I live my life. I'm enjoying every minute of it! ^__^

Thank you for your thoughts. I know love never fails but people sure can simply because no one is perfect.

Christ is the patriac of Christianity which in itself has doctrines and dogma's and thus is a religion. Jesus wasn't quite as nice as you may have been lead to believe and neither was God of the bible.