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There was a forum topic on this I saw yesterday, which partly inspired me to ask the question in my recent Chess News video on our YouTube channel... but I can't find that forum anywhere, so I just figured I post a new topic ...
are we doing enough???
I personally feel a lifetime ban for almost anything is a little harsh, but maybe I am a softy??? I would be in favor a a "title stripping" and a 3 year ban (maybe 2 years with rehabilitation requirements).
Whatcha guys think of that?
[Please be careful. This topic is about OTB cheating otherwise it would be locked. Moderator]
One thing to note, Danny is not talking about cheating here at chess.com. Doing so isn't allowed on the forums.
Danny is discussing "Over the Board" cheating at the highest levels in chess.
And, to answer your question Danny, I'd be for some level of allowing a player back after several years, but any second offences should result in a lifetime ban.
Also Dan, in your opinion, how many of the players who cheat at the highest levels get caught? This of course is conjecture, but, you would be able to answer that question better than most, as you know a lot of those guys. Is there a lot of un-punished cheating going on at the highest levels in your opinion?
A three year ban sounds reasonable. And yes, the player should also be stripped of title and norms (since these were most probably attained dishonestly).
And I agree with furtiveking. On a second offense the player should be banned for life.
The bottom line is, you can't change people. But if the punishment is severe enough, it will make dishonest players at least think twice about cheating.
Id also be interested in cracking down in false accusations of cheating, they damage the integrity of the game almost as much as actual cheating and make it tough for non-chess players to take the game seriously when such mud can be flung with impunity. For example the false charges against Anna Rudolf or the accusations in 2006 championship, if i was in charge the accusers would be stripped of titles and given a 1 year ban or some such. But also tournaments need to be played in secure facilities impenetrable to communications devices, although signal jamming is illegal in the states so some sort of bunker might be called for...
I think ultimately it will be a futile attempt. Technology is getting too good. Some day we will have Rybka 19.2 implants in the brain.
Mandatory CT scans before matches!
is talk about on chess.com or in real world? cheat in real world, should be like in other sports, player gets punished, stripped of title and then banned for some times, and then lives in infamous.
it would be nices if you could be assureded that you not playing engine, I don't mind if happen once every 100 or 200 games (who cares), only get annoying if it's everys other game you playing robot. if wanted to do that, me just play engine on software on me computer or on here.
also maybe chess.coms make sures that people know rules. especially in "online chess", peoples may think it ok to use engines there because it feel a lot like correspondence chess, but this is actuallys against rules. so maybe prominently put "no engine use" somewheres where people who play online chess will sees and not think it ok.
Cheating is wrong.... We get an awful lot of "disputes" in our junior competitions and I have never really witnessed someone deliberately cheating at a junior event. However, kiddies can get carried away and "think" that a piece was somewhere it wasn't. This is usually resolveable. I find parents can get quite edgy and competitive on behalf of the kids and that's natural too.
As regards adults cheating - most competitive sports where you have two teams (i.e. a pitch full of players) and a referee (umpire) you will find that teams will do anything to bend the rules as far as possible and often deliberately break them if they think they can get away with it. Invariably, especially for you "soccer" enthusiasts, this involves the referee taking ALL the blame for making the wrong "decision". i.e. "did he dive for the penalty?!".... that's all cheating and there are no bans for cheating in soccer. You can get a yellow card if the referee deems you dived but you can even define cheating as far as appealing for a throw in for your team even if you knew it wasn't. It's the level of cheating. Unfortunately, it's crept into most sports. Very few are immune.
WIth regards to chess, it's a game played by supposedly intelligent people. Intelligence doesn't, unfortunately, also mean "honourable". In a game like chess where there are no "split decisions", any form of cheating can be construed as a deliberate attempt to take advantage. For players at the very top of the profession, they are the ones who should be setting an example not only for their peers but for the thousands of kids to partake in the game. And the kids know the stars too - Aronian, Vishy, Gazza et al were all mobbed at the recent London Classic according to one star struck chess mum I speak to! The punishment should always fit the crime and should act as a deterrent.
1st offence for all players: 2 year ban
Titled players: Stripped of title for life and 2 year ban minimum
Non titled players: Banned for 2 years minimum and never allowed to obtain any title
3rd offence: Lifetime ban from all competition
Would that act as a deterrent? I'd like to think so....
Get caught cheating...gone! That is the best way to keep people from trying it. Make an example out of someone...Ban for life! and the others will have to stop cheating and will definitely think twice before doing so. Once a cheater has cheated the integrity of the game is tarnished from then on, no matter if he comes back in five, ten, even twenty years. Everyone will be looking at this person, "Hey here comes such and such, You know the guy who cheats!" I mean really folks, would you want to play that person? Now of coarse there has to be undeniable proof. And they should be allowed to play in local pubs and watch the events from the rail bird section. To harsh? Well I think its to harsh on the opponent that was cheated. Did the cheaters opponent deserve that kind of disrespect? I think not. A 2 year ban would only encourage cheaters to be more careful. Once caught, it's over for them any way! What do I know?
well cheating at a tournament is the same as stealing money which should be punishable with jail time or something
You mention the very problem with an outright ban... what if you get the wrong guy?! That would be harsh.... A deterrent of any sort would be good and of course, that person's credibility would be ruined anyway even if accused and not found guilty... guilt by association and "no smoke without fire". However, a second and/or third offence, with enough evidence, would cite someone good and proper. A 2 year ban would effectively end the career of most chess professionals anyway since they would probably have to go out and seek another source of income. Interesting point though but surely people should be given an opportunity to atone for a one off mistake. I'd be pretty hypocritical if I said I was whiter than white in many aspects of life (though I don't consider myself a cheater!!).
To clarify for everyone, we are talking about "Over the Board" and "Tournament" chess -- not cheating on Chess.com! If you are cheating on Chess.com you are a bad person and should be ashamed ... But seriously, you should be!!!
In any case, this is great stuff guys! I think an official guideline of steps is a good idea Tim, though I am not sure I agree with the first one you laid out. Not harsh enough ... I think step 2 should be step 1...
You make some awesome references and very interesting comparisons to other sports, but I am not sure they are accurate analogies. Chess is SO different!!! For starters, physical sports always require a certain level/amount of "judgement calls" by the even the best referees/umpires because they are trying to "keep the game clean and fair" and "make the best call they can" but not dictate or play the game themselves. In chess, the rules are very clear and with NO GRAY AREAS in regards to what's cheating and what isn't.
Are there any gray areas of cheating in chess that I am unaware of, I don't think so... SO I loved your points, and they were good ones, but the more I thought about it, I felt that it didn't make total sense for this discussion...
I agree with everyone who made points about the harmfulness of a "false accusation". They really can destroy someone's reputation and career... so yeah, perhaps making it more clear within the FIDE guidelines of:
Here's my two cents.
1) People want to be gods in everything they do and be worshipped. It's human nature.
2) People don't want to work for it.
3) People want to be gods in chess and don't want to work for it.
4) Good-hearted people were brought up to believe this behavior is wrong, which it is.
5) Good-hearted people are screwed over by those who don't want to work for it and want to be worshipped.
Here's my suggestion. The solution must come from the society as a whole. This is my message: Learn to appreciate the talent of those who have worked for it. Learn to appreciate the character of those individuals who don't want to be worshipped.
a movie should be made about someone who doesnt play chess but becomes world champion as a heist to steal money. titled "the italian game job"
I think you identified the point I was trying to actually make, Danny! In fact, yes, there IS cheating in other sports and YES, judgement calls by officials are called for and that the difference with chess is that there aren't (or shouldn't, if everyone is playing fair!) any judgement calls to make at all!
I probably should have elaborated by stating that "There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for cheating in chess".
Your reasoning behind calling for a stiff first offence punishment is accurate since you are right of course, pretty much EVERYTHING is laid out not only in "The Laws of Chess" but also individual competition, league or governing body guidelines. That's part of what *should* set chess (along with other "pure skill games/sports") apart from other sports in terms of identifying "cheating".
In chess, if everything else is equal, a sufficiently stronger player should always win. We all know this doesn't always happen and for me, that''s part of what also makes chess so fascinating, because the underlying causes as to why the game can throw in surprises in terms of results are a lot more subtle than a "lucky net cord" or, "the star quarterback got injured" etc etc..
Once a cheater always a cheater. Lifetime ban is the only justice. Just like Pete Rose in baseball. You cheat and get caught and you're gone for life. And the only title you should hold is "cheater."
I personally think it's outrageous that a cheater didn't have his GM title taken away (see the Wikipedia article on cheating in chess).
Respectfully disagree, there is some "gray area" regards chess cheating and that's called openings theory.
Openings research using books, magazines, games databases...perfectly legal on chess.com and throughout most of the correspondence chess world.
And yet some would argue that use of openings theory is cheating. Why? Well, obviously that move has been played before!! Could be some GM played it first, some other strong human, or a computer engine. Most of the time it's impossible to know where a particular move originated.
But to outlaw openings theory? Then it wouldn't be chess.
We are talking about the Over The Board here. see post #15
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