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They deserve to have a fair go.
Except perhaps for the attitude they got when they beat men at the chess club. Probably any dominant junior would get some, but I remember a quip about how how sister said she'd never beaten a man who wasn't sick (i.e. they always had an excuse).
Anyway, just because their father pushed chess on them doesn't mean they didn't experience any stereotyping out in the world whenever they played.
Is it age discrimination if I, an adult, can't participate in junior events?
Is it age discrimination if you score the same as a child in an open event yet he/she gets a prize and you don't?
Yes on both counts, but I don't see it as necessarily wrong.
I apologize, but, assuming there was some discrimination by society (iffy), if you have your parent backing you up like that, are a couple of random comments really going to stop your passion?
To be honest, I think I am in a much worse position than the Polgar sisters chess-wise. Sure, I'm a boy, and there is no stereotype that males can't play chess, but that doesn't make a chess-playing guy popular either.
The problem is that I have nowhere near the same amount of emotional support from my parents as the Polgar sisters must have had. They have no problem with me playing chess, but they don't want me to be a professional chess player, and I do. I have an uphill battle with myself and my parents in the long-shot that I actually accomplish my goal.
But look at all the prize money wasted on lower talented kids when I should be getting my share to support my semi-starving cat!
Actually, I don't think women are at any disavatage, socially or intellectually, though they do have issues to deal with that differ from those men must deal with and, if the more talented players participated in more open events, they would find themselves improving at a faster rate. But my feeling is, that, other than diverting a small portion of money from the general fund, women-only events do nothing to harm men and, in fact, encourage women who may not participate otherwise for whatever reasons. I would go so far as to suggest that NO money should be diverted and that the organizers of women-only events find all their own sponsors and funding.
Well, I'm certainly jealous of the fact that if I were a girl I would probably be in an issue of chess life by now, getting WFM norms maybe. Seeing one group being put at an unfair (in my opinion) advantage is about as bad as being put at a disadvantage; in fact, perhaps the two things are equivalent?
... He used them as part of an experiment to prove an idea of his in his profession and forced them to practice all the time. Sure you like chess, that doesn't mean they did. What if your father decided you were going to be a professional pianist and toured you around starting as early as you could remember? I wonder what the chances are all three sisters were actually that interested in chess ;)
Not that they weren't loved or satisfied, I have no idea, I just think you're jumping to conclusions.
To be fair, I think you have to be interested in chess to become that good at it; otherwise, there is little motivation to push yourself to learn. Starting them out young probably makes it become a part of their lifestyle. The Polgar sisters were raised to be problem solvers; not pretty girls, so by the time they could realize what they were doing, they probably had much more appreciation for problem solving than most girls would. But if you try to teach a 21 year-old girl who has for her whole life been conditioned to care about looking good, it'll be hard to break those habits and get her to enjoy the game.
Granted, this is all theory, and it is not more proven than yours, but I think you are nitpicking the smallest holes in my argument. For a lot of people, it's hard to ask for a better kind of parent than Lazlo. Maybe their situation wasn't picture perfect, but few things are.
I'm just making sure you're not reading your values into their childhood e.g. "I wish my parents would push me to become a pro chess player, therefore anyone with parents pushing their children to become a professional ____ were supportive and great parents"
Also the whole "I'm part of my father's experiment" thing in the back of your mind. To my knowledge the three sisters don't play anymore. Sofia quit in her 20s (IIRC) -- I suppose she didn't appreciate her 2700 performance rating at the age of 14.
So I don't feel like it's nitpicking to point out the facts we do know and ask what I think are reasonable questions.
im a woman...and from a so called modern country as Holland. I always wanted to learn chess, but my dad that never played chess. i have 3 brothers in law (married to my sisters) for the past 27 years. they play chess, just never wanted to teach me...i got only laught at when i asked...your a woman ...woman should not play chess that was the answer i got. I think maybe thats the original reason they have championship for woman seperated from man....i think in the time it all started woman where only a laugh for the man...not taken seriously...it stopped woman from complaining ...just give them their own championship and they wil be at ease lol
i think now a days thats far behind on how woman are looked at. they made themsellf stand up in this world. (wished my bro in law would see that lol)
so in all fairness i think should be mixed always
Well, a lot of great artists quit. Kurt Cobain killed himself at 27. Kasparov had to be obsessed with the game for quite some time, yet he has now abandoned it for other concerns.
If there was never any interest in the game in the first place, then I think it makes their ability to become good, even with that going against them, all the more impressive. But for the record, I have seen in a source (a book ("Bounce"), not an online source ) of the Polgar sisters, in talking about their childhood, saying something like "We know our father pushed the game on us, but to us it wasn't work; we enjoyed the game." They realized what their father was doing, but they didn't view it as pushing.
Ok, good info.
As for Kasparov retiring around 50, I think that's a fairly normal age to stop. Esp. considering how competitive he was, I imagine him as one who'd quit before he experienced the displeasure of age catching up to him.
fleurtje31: I understand that, but the problem I have with that argument is that you take your experience, and you apply it to every woman out there. You're stereotyping.
When you just happen to also be the #1 player in the world by like 50 points?
When you just happen to be the #1 player in the world by like 50 points?
My brothers and I used to have a funny ritual. When we'd win at a game (esp. a particularly lucky win) we'd swear it was the last time we'd ever play by proclaiming "I retire champion!"
Haha, my older brother has been retired for about 3 years, and he is probably about 300 points lower than me these days! Smart move!
lol, and I'm not kidding -- due to his nature, he really does refuse to play against me; he has beaten me in the last game we have played
Ah, so you're familiar with this little tactic heh.
Just a quick thought on the Polgars/discrimination issue ...
Although I'm not sure that Judit had it quite so bad, Zsuzsa (Susan) certainly did. In 1986, after qualifying to play for the World Championship (the REAL world championship), she was disqualified for no other reason than that she was a girl. This happened at some other events as well, but Zsusza remembers this as the most disappointing. I think whatever side of the arguments that we're taking, we can all agree that this was wrong and unfair treatment.
Also, someone had written that "to the best of their knowledge" the Polgar sisters no longer played. Just to update everyone on the current situation: Zsofia doesn't play anymore, Zsuzsa is still very active in promoting chess (among women, primarily) - but doesn't really play it competitively much anymore, and Judit still plays pretty regularly ... she finished in the Top 8 at last year's World Cup (out of 128 participants).
That's accurate about Susan Polgar. While she was only 17 and probably had no chance of winning, she was denied, arbitrarily in spite of having qualified, to participate in the WC cycle.
Us women we is gettings smertar alls the time u no. We will beet men with our branes sum day. u will sea. maibe few hundreds year aways but u watcch and sea!
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