"Conquering the Colle"

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7th March 2009, 04:22pm
#41
by Honolulu147
Toronto Canada
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 127

 cool opening

8th March 2009, 06:31pm
#42
by rob9258
Oak Park United States
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 158

Theory gives white equality in most of the main lines of the Torre variation -- check out ECO or MCO.

9th March 2009, 01:01am
#43
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 812
atomichicken wrote:
OMGdidIrealyjustsact wrote:

And all you've got to show that white gets his bishop developed earlier than Black is games in which Black also locks in his Bishop. In this case the one who gets it out first with e4/5 wins with the extra Bishop, and this is usually white because of his extra move. Why not do this from the start?? By the way, "White gets to use his dark squared Bishop earlier than Black in almost all lines" cannot be true as it is possible for Black to develop his Bishop on move 2 (d4 e6 Nf3 B?) when to play the Colle white has to Block in the Bishop on move 3. you must be referring to the ColleVColle lines but as mentioned this proves the weakness as well as opportunity.

I don't have an amazing refutation. What I have instead is a rather mundane record in which I have never lost against the Colle since I have known it is called the Colle (3 Years and 60 games).

What am I supposed to say about the Colle other than the Bishop gets trapped? All the other developments are fine but (this is important) they can be played anyway after the Bishop is developed (London/Torre/Tromp systems).

On the Colle V Slav issues this might be a manifestation of Black's disadvantage. Black can't develop the Bishop without running into trouble (1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bf4?! 5.Qb3) so he either chooses a mad system (the dxc4 lines) or a solid one to go for the draw. Such pessimism is pardonable for Black and inexcusable for White.


"And all you've got to show that white gets his bishop developed earlier than Black is games in which Black also locks in his Bishop."- Which happens to be almost all, if not all of the recommended lines for Black. "In this case the one who gets it out first with e4/5 wins with the extra Bishop, and this is usually white because of his extra move. Why not do this from the start??"- You seem to be saying that White can just develop his DSB out from the start without any negative concequences at all, but you will be surprised to hear that there are actually quite strong reasons to merit leaving it at home for the early stages! Many a time has the undefended b-pawn it leaves behind been the bane of the Torre player. Here's a sample main Torre line where Black gets to basically equalise all because of White's potential b-pawn weakness: 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bg5 Ne4 4. Bf4 c5 5. e6 Qb3 6. Qc1 Bf5 with roughly equal play for both sides. "By the way, "White gets to use his dark squared Bishop earlier than Black in almost all lines" cannot be true as it is possible for Black to develop his Bishop on move 2 (d4 e6 Nf3 B?) when to play the Colle white has to Block in the Bishop on move 3."- It is possible, but not advisable. I would go so far as to say it is foolhardy in fact! White can just transpose into a QG and as any strong player knows Black's DSB should not be developed out early in the QG. E.g: 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Bf5? 3. c4! So as I said before your Colle smashing method of "using the extra Bishop" won't work in reality against anyone who knows how to play it properly, and White will get to develop his Bishop out earlier but not so early that he has to worry about a strong, early Q-Side initiative from Black. I think you'll find that using the extra Bishop can be quite tricky when the other side has it. "I don't have an amazing refutation. What I have instead is a rather mundane record in which I have never lost against the Colle since I have known it is called the Colle (3 Years and 60 games)."- Wow, the next Bobby Fischer! I notice that number has also magically gone down from 700 games to 60. Go a bit lower and it may start to sound plausible. Also, please post some of those games where you "smashed" that guy from your club. I'm dying to see them..

 The reason the number went down is I originally gave all the games, then looked again for colle games.

I still think you're not being broad enough in your consideration of what you're playing the colle against. Once White plays d4 black can respond with practically anything he likes. You've only been considering d4 d5 wheras black can play anything (Benoni, Grunfeld, KID, QID). In these Black doesn't trap the Bishop.

5th July 2009, 02:07pm
#44
by Elubas
Buffalo United States
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 2605
OMGdidIrealyjustsact wrote:
likesforests wrote:

OMGdidIrealyjustsact> Even if the Colle does eventually let the Bishop out I would not teach beginners... it reinforces the most common bad habit: not using all your pieces.

Look again at the model game Colle-Delvaux. Every piece except the a1-rook and king play a role in the win--the Colle is all about developing before attacking.

Good luck with your "secret, Colle-smashing" lines.

ericmittens> No no, in all seriousness the Colle is a reasonable opening to play... [some other openings] offer white better chances to fight for an opening advantage.

Very true.


 They are not lines and they are probably not secret. One thing that I have noted about several of the posted games is that often Black locks in his own Queenside Bishop like White (e.g. aabbccdd V only_a_game and Colle V Deveraux) so while proving the potential strength of the Colle they also ironically prove its weakness. Basically my "Secret, Colle-smashing line" is Use The Extra Bishop!!!


I don't think you understand that it's ok not to develop the dark squared bishop right away. I don't play the colle, but I play the queen's gambit, and e3 is in many variations superior to Bg5 or Bf4. The problem with an early Bf4 is that for one it's exposed and also  it isn't clear how many problems immediately the bishop will cause for black even if it looks nice. There is no way to punish the undeveloped bishop and instead in both the colle and QG white plays for e4 more quickly, since then the bishop will be open anyways. It's usually very temporary. It's probably this rapid central expansion that allows club players to attack more than in the london system.

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