"Conquering the Colle"

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6th March 2009, 12:20am
#1
by likesforests
United States
Member Since: May 2007
Member Points: 4407

Playing over Conquering the Colle, I can't help but chuckle:

Copying the Colle is more like it. The suggested setup is completely symmetric, and it's White to move. At best, Black may have equality. Does he?

"If White plays e4, Black captures at e4, exchanges a pair of minor pieces there and brings the other knight to f6, where it defends h7."

That is White's plan exactly. So 7.e4 dxe4 8.Nxe4 Nxe4 9.Bxe4 Nf6 10.Bd3:

White has more central space and Black's light-squared bishop is bad. According to my database, White scores a very healthy 59% in this line. So not only does this approach not conquer the Colle, equality is not quite yet achieved.

The last note:

"Otherwise Black can play ...e5, with further support available with Re8 or Qe7 or both."

A good finish to this lesson would be an explanation of White's advantages and some tips on how Black can play against them--for example, a fianchetto on the queenside followed by a c5-break to eliminate d4. Here's an instructive game where Black correctly evaluated the imbalances, but then tried to solve his troubles in a misguided way:

6th March 2009, 01:53am
#2
by mauerblume
Duesseldorf Germany
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5732

In this set-up the black bishop presumly would be better placed at e7 as he does in the Rubinstein - variation of French Defense :

( I have given in also some - not all - variations in move-list)

 

6th March 2009, 06:06am
#3
by itstheemu18
Boston United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 405

I find to really mess with Colle players, playing ...c5 early on, with a pawn already on d5, makes them scramble, especially if they're Zukertort players.

But now, I prefer this setup:
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bd3 c5, and play from there ^_^

6th March 2009, 06:17am
#4
by kid_of_chess
Ottawa,Ontario Canada
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5774

i play the colle, the stuff black plays that annoys me is

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.Nbd2 c4

6th March 2009, 10:55am
#5
by likesforests
United States
Member Since: May 2007
Member Points: 4407

mauerblume, thanks for the insight! I missed that transpositions... less space, and a "problem" light-squared bishop... I should've seen that coming. :)

itstheemu18> I find to really mess with Colle players, playing ...c5 early on, with a pawn already on d5, makes them scramble, especially if they're Zukertort players.

This is actually the mainline, so it shouldn't make Colle players scramble or even take them out-of-book. The attack proceeds as normal.

itstheemu18> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bd3 c5, and play from there ^_^

Transposing to a Queen's Indian Defense. This is more interesting!

aabbccdd> 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5; 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4

Transposing to a Slav! My favorite response.

aabbccdd> 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.Nbd2 c4

If this line is challenging, it's only because your move order is inaccurate.

4...c5 5.c3! is the mainline and gives White's bishop a nice retreat square on the b1-h7 diagonal. Now 5...c4 is a mistake, accomplishing nothing.

For example:

6th March 2009, 10:56am
#6
by likesforests
United States
Member Since: May 2007
Member Points: 4407

Colle-Delvaux, 1929:

6th March 2009, 11:17am
#7
by likesforests
United States
Member Since: May 2007
Member Points: 4407

Another example of a silly c-pawn push in the Colle (reversed), or as some people like to call it, the Semi-Slav / Meran variation (two-minute blitz):

6th March 2009, 11:23am
#8
by kid_of_chess
Ottawa,Ontario Canada
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5774
likesforests wrote:

mauerblume, thanks for the insight! I missed that transpositions... less space, and a "problem" light-squared bishop... I should've seen that coming. :)

itstheemu18> I find to really mess with Colle players, playing ...c5 early on, with a pawn already on d5, makes them scramble, especially if they're Zukertort players.

This is actually the mainline, so it shouldn't make Colle players scramble or even take them out-of-book. The attack proceeds as normal.

itstheemu18> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bd3 c5, and play from there ^_^

Transposing to a Queen's Indian Defense. This is more interesting!

aabbccdd> 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5; 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bg4

Transposing to a Slav! My favorite response.

aabbccdd> 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.Nbd2 c4

If this line is challenging, it's only because your move order is inaccurate.

4...c5 5.c3! is the mainline and gives White's bishop a nice retreat square on the b1-h7 diagonal. Now 5...c4 is a mistake, accomplishing nothing.

For example:


and lets say i want to play the Zukertort variation w/o c3, with b3?

6th March 2009, 11:28am
#9
by likesforests
United States
Member Since: May 2007
Member Points: 4407

aabbccdd> and lets say i want to play the Zukertort variation w/o c3, with b3?

In that case, you answer 4...c5 with 5.b3! You've made one of your natural developing moves and now a c5-c4 advance just loses a pawn.

6th March 2009, 11:49am
#10
by boyerbcb77
Pikeville United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 626

nice

6th March 2009, 12:05pm
#11
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 812

I don't see why the colle is so popular. Sure, it is sound, but insanely boring! I feel that white cannot play for an advantage after locking in his Queen's Bishop since Black's position often lacks the pawn weaknesses that make seemingly similar defences like the French interesting. As for "Conquering the Colle" the setup shown is what I would expect to develop from beginner's games where the players copy each other ideologically without expanding their set of ideas and openings. Chess Mentor is too eager to recomend passive blocking in of powerful pieces and this can only being expected seeing as it was written by leading grandmasters who cannot be blamed for wanting to lower the standard of potential competition.

6th March 2009, 12:17pm
#12
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1865

My fav line against the Bd3 Colle:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And Against the Zukertort:

6th March 2009, 12:27pm
#13
by kid_of_chess
Ottawa,Ontario Canada
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5774
OMGdidIrealyjustsact wrote:

I don't see why the colle is so popular. Sure, it is sound, but insanely boring! I feel that white cannot play for an advantage after locking in his Queen's Bishop since Black's position often lacks the pawn weaknesses that make seemingly similar defences like the French interesting. As for "Conquering the Colle" the setup shown is what I would expect to develop from beginner's games where the players copy each other ideologically without expanding their set of ideas and openings. Chess Mentor is too eager to recomend passive blocking in of powerful pieces and this can only being expected seeing as it was written by leading grandmasters who cannot be blamed for wanting to lower the standard of potential competition.


Are you insane!

Check out this game, is it boring?

6th March 2009, 12:29pm
#14
by jrcolonial98
Newtown, Connecticut United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 1881

not boring at all

6th March 2009, 12:32pm
#15
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1865

The Colle isn't necessarily boring, it's just not as good for white as the mainline 2.c4 variations.

Also it's USUALLY quite boring Laughing

6th March 2009, 12:37pm
#16
by kid_of_chess
Ottawa,Ontario Canada
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5774
ericmittens wrote:

 

Also it's USUALLY quite boring


Are you calling my Ne5 and f4 attack boring? Surprised

6th March 2009, 12:40pm
#17
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1865

Ah yes the stonewall...

I wouldn't necessarily call the stonewall boring...but it's not very good for white.

6th March 2009, 12:43pm
#18
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1865

My favorite line against the stonewall!

6th March 2009, 12:48pm
#19
by kid_of_chess
Ottawa,Ontario Canada
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5774
ericmittens wrote:

Ah yes the stonewall...

I wouldn't necessarily call the stonewall boring...but it's not very good for white.


that isnt the stonewall- its a typical Colle-Zukertort!

6th March 2009, 12:50pm
#20
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1865

Well, I play the benko gambit against the d4 mainlines so yes all of the lines I play vs. the non-mainline d4 openings involve a kingside fiancetto.

vs the London and Torre the themes are similar, but adjustments have to be made of course.

For example, vs the london I would play something like this:

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