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i've started to play 1.d4 as an opening move recently and came across the reponse. 1... c5 today. is this a sound response? what's the best way of playing now?
2. d5 Is the main move. It transposes to Benoni/Benko related positions in many cases. For example 2. ...Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. e4... etc.
It's certainly playable but I like to think of it as a sub-par defense for black. In the benoni white has played c4, but in this he can keep the c pawn back so white has more room for piece activity Nc3 and the f1-a6 diagonal for pieces.
Well, that's what I've been told anyway, I'm not a d4 player so I've never had these positions myself.
I agree completely with zkman. In fact, I would go even further.
1.d4 c5 2.d5 is the only move that guarantees white an advantage out of the opening. The main problem with 1..c5 is that if your goal is to play the Benoni you have chosen a rather inflexible move order. White ends up getting more options against the Modern Benoni and Benko than Black does. This is why it is less popular than other methods of reaching these openings.
i suppose at my level and in blitz it doesn't matter much but i can see after 2. d5 it could get very cramped for black, i hate to play it as black myself
I've got an advantage against a GM as white by 2.dc5 (although the game later petered out to a draw). But yes, 2.d5 is the thematic move, when routinely white should omit playing c2-c4 (this has a few advantages over a regular Benoni).
1.d4 c5 2.d5 is the only move that guarantees white an advantage out of the opening.
Here's a win from this opening by me:
In #9 the move 16...Rxe3! is actually a correct simple tactical shot which wins material. Black should of course not hurry to pick back, but play 18...Qb6 when white has not enough forces to support the pinned rook, let alone the other rook which is also under threat.
I think you played very reasonable.
However, You shouldn't rush into playing moves like 4...e5.
You under valued your center pawns after the move 4...e5.
I think you should of played moves which you already know.
The knight on g8 has no other place to be on then f6 in this situation. It can't go to e7 and it would look sillly on h8.
Which means you know 100% in this position the knight going to f6 would be the most natural looking move.
The reason you want to play natural moves first is to give yourself time to figure out where the rest of your pawns + army belongs.
Is the E pawn better on e6 supporting d5 pawn?
Is the E pawn better on e5 creating a double pawn center?
If you play e5 can you maintain both e5 and d5 pawns from coming under attack?
After you played 4...e5. White retreated his knight to f3 and you had to push your pawn again because you really have no easy way of defending both e5 and d5.
The only move to defend both pawns would be Qd6 which is a very very awkward way of defending with a queen.
You should of played moves which you already knew you needed to play.
Than tryed to figure out a way to defend the e5 square so that if you do play e5 the pawn does not have to push again.
2 center pawns side by side are more dangerious than space!
They control all center squares.
After 4...e5 white plays 5.Nf3 hitting your pawn. You pushed because its tough to defend those pawns at the moment. You did not give them any support. Once you played 5...e4.
Than the white knight jumped back on his outpost in the center of the board. Your pawn push left a hole on d4 forever!
White can than build up and place rooks on the D file to pressure your backward d5 pawn.
Which means at move 5 you gave your opponent a plan which he could of used to try and win the game with.
He had the weak square d4 for pieces and white had a long term plan of pressuring d5 pawn.
I loved everything you did until move 4.
Your opponents mistakes were at move 8 and 10.
The move c3 by him closed in his dark bishop. Which his dark bishop needs to get into the game. He should of played 8.b3 than Bb2.
Which would of gave him further control of d4.
At move 10 that was another big mistake by him. He let you capture on d4. Which forced him to recapture with a pawn.
Move 10.b3 was his positional mistake.
He should of played 10.Nc2
Which retreats the knight so you can't capture anything. Than he could try to play Ba3 which would exchange the dark square bishops.
If he exchanges the dark bishops than he gains control of d4 because your bishop is hitting d4 on c5.
You are positionally crumbling in this game because of 1 premature pawn move at move 4.
However, It is hard to learn positional chess than it is to learn tactical chess.
I strongly believe a person could find 100's of tactical books on tactics;however, not many on positional moves.
Out of my own curiosity, What move was you going to play next if white played 2.d5?
Thanks for the advice. I guess my temporary rook sacrifice really was worth it.
Maybe 4... e5 wasn't the best move. But I guess I played it because it looks good to me and I don't have a 2000+ rating like you do. I did a computer analysis, and the computer didn't see this as an inaccuracy or a mistake. However, maybe 4... Nf6 would have been better.
If he played 2. d5, I would always play 2... d6, preparing for 3... e5. If I played 2... e5 right away, here's what would happen:
In response to your text in Blue:
I was not trying to criticize your play. I was giving you alternative idea's. There is more than 1 way to play a position. Maybe with more idea's you would of found a line you like better than that one. You never know!
It is something to think about.
You have to be aware your pawns can come under attack if you play this 4...e5 line. It is a very commital move. Which by me telling you this might be helpful information for you.
In response to your text in Red:
Computer engines can be very helpful tools. They sometimes have problems in the opening and in closed positions. However, most of the time computer engines can be helpful.
I do not think the engine will hate your move because it gains space. However, at the same time your pawns will come under attack. A computer engine can find a very good defense to defend its pawns. Humans sometimes can't. Which means when you played this move 4...e5 you was going to have to be prepared to do some defense. If you are not a good defender than you do not want to enter into such a position.
When you play chess it is better to play lines which highlight your strength not your weakness.
If you can defend reasonably well than ok this line might be fine for you.
If you can't defend very well than maybe you should avoid it and try another set of moves.
Like I mentioned in my other post 4...Nf6 is very flexible move.
You can than play e5, e6, or Bf5 later on after you played 4...Nf6.
I mean you could even consider playing Bg4 or b6 with Bb2 later if your feeling little aggressive.
So many possibilities.
In response to your text in Orange:
Yeah I don't know the name of that line very well. I think it is called the Czech Benoni or something like that. Very interesting for sure.
Yeah I was curious because I play 2...f5 lol.
Which is the Clarendon Court Defence
It is unsound but it is fun to play lol.
5-cell, in response to 9 I don't think 2. e5 deserves '?!' (though Nf6 first is better.) 3. dxe5 seems to be a bad move, Black recaptures with the f-pawn and is at least equal. In a similar position in the Czech Benoni (with the pawn on c4 and the Knight on f6) taking is a mistake as Black even gets an edge by recapturing with the f-pawn. Just play Nf6, d5, move the Bishop, and castle. Black has a fine game.
D4 c5 c4?! cxd4 Nf3?! e5 Nxe5 Qa5+
The question is a reasonable one, but the game is not. I do not mean to be insulting but please use a better quality game as a demonstration. At any event 1.d4,c5 is only good for black if 1) white actually exchanges with 2.dc? or 2) black actually wants to play the Benoni. I have studied the Benoni and once owned the Starting Out book on it. I tried to give the book away, but nobody wanted it. I think I may have trashed it. I've trashed more chess books than just about anyone has ever even read, because so many are poorly written and unhelpful. I hate the idea of inviting a permanently backward d-pawn. I hate any pawn weakness, especially a permanent one. But, hey, I don't pretend to know everything; so if you want to play the Benoni, then play 1.d4,c5.
As has been said earlier this is not as good for Black as a regular Benoni because White doesn't have to play c4.
As far as pawn weakness, d6 can be a target in a normal Benoni but it's not a backward pawn. White has a pawn in front of it. It's just a blocked center.
If White plays like the text, there's still no backward pawn because Black recaptures with the f-pawn as I said earlier and then plays d5.
No one has yet mentioned that 1.d4 c5 2.d5 can also lead to the Clarendon Court Defence (aka Dutch-Benoni) after 2...f5. Most people tell me it's bad for black, but strange openings interest me. I don't think I will play it in an OTB tournament again; even the Modern Benoni would be safer.
If you fear the Clarendon Court Opening that much, then maybe you should play tiddly-winks instead of chess.
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