# A Question from a Beginner about a position in the Italian Game

• 2 years ago · Quote · #1

I'm just a beginner but I was just wondering about a variation that I never see mentioned.

In this position the most common move seems to be something along the lines of d4. But one move which I can't find anything on is 5) Ng5  0-0 6) Bxf7  Rxf7 7) Nxf7  Kxf7 which results in this:

So my question is with the matirial even is this a bad position for white, and if so why? Thanks. Also sorry if the formating for this is a little off.

Edit: fixed the second diagram

• 2 years ago · Quote · #2

This is generally considered to be better for black as the two pieces outweigh the rook and pawn.

• 2 years ago · Quote · #4

looks like black is a piece up with a sizeable lead in development. white should be worried. my two cents worth.

• 2 years ago · Quote · #5

Those point counts -- N = 3, R = 5, etc. are in general amazingly good at giving a good idea of relative worth of material... but one place they fall down on is the Two minors (6) vs R+ p(6) valuation. 90% of the time It just isn't equal IMO.  Two pieces can work together in a way the lone rook can't. I'd think two minors for R + 2 pawns is usually only just equal... and even then I'd hesitatite if it's early in the game with most material still on the board.

• 2 years ago · Quote · #6

True, the h1 rook is missing in the diagram. Still, white sacrificed a knight and a bishop for rook and pawn. So, imo, while on a pure point count material could be construed as being even, this is the opening and white is now minus one full fighting piece and has practically zero development. Black is about to throw everything but the kitchen sink at white.

• 19 months ago · Quote · #7

The advantage is coming by the more active pieces you have not the number of pieces ..
So black is going to win ..

• 19 months ago · Quote · #8

It depends in a middlegame two pieces are stronger in an endgame the rook can be stronger if thats all that left and there are pawns on both wings. Its complicated.

The positon is better for black

One of the things I have been using to help beginners understand value is to think of pieces and dynamic values not static ones. A piece value is based on its mobility if its doing something its worth something and that value varies depending on how much it can do. in the beginning of the game the rooks value is decreased wen compared to say a knight.

The other thing this does is that highlights that pieces off the board are worth zero!  and counting them is meaningless its only whats on the board that counts