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A strong set-up for white aimed at <2400s


  • 19 months ago · Quote · #1

    Chess4001

     
    This derives mainly from the Bird opening (1. f4) and acts as a style of white playing a black defense. Which defense is it? That would be the either the Queens Indian defense or the Dutch defense. 
    To me, this is a strong set-up for white because it encourages easy development of all pieces, controls the center, and follows a clear plan of a kingside attack. This should be even better than black's because this has one extra tempo.
    What do you think?

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #2

    rooperi

    The 1st thing I imagine when I see that diagram is a black Night on e3 .......

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #3

    Fear_ItseIf

    im not sure id call it strong, its probably solid as I imagine e3 wouldnt become weak until it is difficult to get at.
    However, while it doesnt do anything wrong, it doesnt actually do anything.

    White is simply restraining black rather than pursuing any notable advantage, in reality I can imagine black being the one with more appropriately devloped pieces.

    .:. Playable but toothless.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #4

    blueemu

    I think that since White has made nine free moves, Black should get eight or nine free moves, too. Let's see...

    h5, Rh6, d6, Qd7, Qg4, Rg6, Qxg2 mate... and you can keep the change.

    Seriously, though... the set-up looks OK if Black is playing d5. The only obvious weakness is the e3 square.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #5

    Kingpatzer

    The idea of playing a "setup" rather than playing chess in the opening really doesn't isn't going to get someone very far as a chess player. 

    White has an innate advantage in the opening, throwing it away in order to chase a passive setup giving no advantage isn't how one gets anywhere close to 1400, let alone 2400.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #6

    Backwardking

    I would look to have a field day with the a7-g1 diagonal if I was playing as black.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #7

    blueemu

    Basilman wrote:

    I would look to have a field day with the a7-g1 diagonal if I was playing as black.

    Meh. White can always shift to a stonewall formation if he has to, with d4. Where's your "field day" then? It will cost him a tempo (d2-d3-d4), but how many tempi did Black waste setting up his diagonal attack which now isn't going to happen?

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #8

    TheGreatOogieBoogie

    I used to experiment with this years ago, sometimes I loved it though the weak e3 pawn became a problem at times.  I'd sometimes transpose to it via Ne5-f4, then Nf3 again if I had to. 

    Sometimes there'd be a pawnstorm aimed at the black king and even rooklifts to either g3 or h3, sometimes with queen pressure too!  I don't really like parroting moves though, since somewhere between one system move and another could be an even better way to deal with black's plan.  Maybe c4 is better than f4 if black creates that context?  Stuff like that.   

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #9

    eddysallin

    Rooperi is right that ne3 would be painful for white .  Bishop/ Queen on c5 at the same time and i hear the funeral march playing in the backround.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #10

    FirebrandX

    This is from a Nimzo-Larsen formation, but the key difference is the light bishop is usually on b5 and ready to trade on c6. Where it is in this formation is just getting in the way of the queen.

    In the 'proper' Nimzo-Larsen with Bishop on b5 or trade on c6 knight, white's plan will often be Ne5 with a rook lift to f3 and over to g3 or h3. You all-out storm the castled king basically.

    But anyway, in answer to the OP, it's white playing a Nimzo-Indian  variation in reverse (as in the bishop on b5 as I mentioned).

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #11

    CapAnson

    I would pay my opponents to play this against me.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #12

    Warlight

    how much? i'll do it!

    i think that this position would be hard to set up and definitely not worth all those moves, if you're going to make a solid formation you can do better than this

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #13

    happyfanatic

    aimed at <insert arbitrary rating here>

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #14

    Bill_C

    Very interesting line to play here. The Nimzo-Larsen seems to be a sharp line to hit at Black with so tactics are key gaining a decisive advantage. How this might fare against a Pirc or a Kings indian setup would be something interesting, let alone perhaps if Black continues with perhaps the Noteboom Variation of the QGD or even the Abrams Variation as well.

    Still, interesting design scheme though I would have to concur with KP that going into exchanges might be unsettling to White here.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #15

    FirebrandX

    CapAnson wrote:

    I would pay my opponents to play this against me.

    I play it exclusively as white (well with the bishop outside the chain whenever possible). All it is is a Nimzo-Indian in reverse, so are you saying you'd pay black to play a Nimzo-Indian on you?

    Anyway, this is one of my typical 5-min blitz games using it on playchess (though granted I missed a couple of better moves toward the end):



  • 19 months ago · Quote · #16

    Chess4001

    pawn on f2 nd d4 would be a big improvement

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #17

    FirebrandX

    Chess4001 wrote:

    pawn on f2 nd d4 would be a big improvement

    Along with the Bishop on d3 and you've got a Colle-Zuckertort, but guess what? In many CZ lines, the knight jumps to e5 and the f-pawn pushes to f4 anyway.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #18

    Irontiger

    blueemu wrote:
    Basilman wrote:

    I would look to have a field day with the a7-g1 diagonal if I was playing as black.

    Meh. White can always shift to a stonewall formation if he has to, with d4. Where's your "field day" then? It will cost him a tempo (d2-d3-d4), but how many tempi did Black waste setting up his diagonal attack which now isn't going to happen?

    Well, two (...b6 and ...Bb7). Whereas you've given him the e4-square which you won't recover by long.

    This is the problem with all kinds of "set-ups" intended to play without looking at the other side of the board. You just abandon initiative, because actually doing something would require to adapt (oh ! what a terrible word) to what the opponent is doing.

     

    As for the rating... I play at 1900 in my very best days, at even at my very worst I wouldn't hold that setup in high consideration. Sure, you're not going to be crushed by a mating attack by soon, but Black has many plans to try to get an advantage, and eventually you will have to cope with them (when the point of the setup was precisely to avoid thinking about this). One way is ...a5-a4 and attacking the queenside, one other is ...0-0-0 and ...g5 opening your kingside, etc.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #19

    Zevras

    Looks a bit like a mirror-imaged Zukertort.

  • 19 months ago · Quote · #20

    Conzipe

    It's very okay to play in this fashion as white to just produce a playable equal game. The extra tempo just doesn't give white all that much in this slower type of position. However it's not a setup you can always go for, so it can't be used as a universal system.

    You generally benefit from trading of the bishop on e2 earlier on, since it's whites worst piece in this formation. Experienced black players usually won't allow this to happen. However it's quite common on lower levels that they play for example 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 c5 3. e3 Nc6 4. Bb5 when white achieves their goal.

    I really should mention that the "Kingside Attack" usually isn't all that impressive unless your opponent plays poorly, this is a common misconception about the dutch in general. Rather you should more often just try to fight for more control of the center and slowly improve the rest of your pieces.
    While you keep possible kingside attack ideas in the back of your mind, since if black gets to distracted in the center or on the queenside, a kingside attack can suddenly get very dangerous. 


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