I read something about the fantasy in Jon Speelman's book which says that as long as black doesn't try the dxe4 fxe4 e5 variation, which gives white good compensation, then black should be ok.

I still advise playing the Panov attack.

 Ya I think I will stay away from the fantasy variation, atleast in long or correspondence games. I have never understood why the panov is so good though, I have heard alot of people say it is dangerous and have seen it used well in high level games, but strategically trading my e4 pawn for blacks c6 pawn followed by giving myself an IQP doesn't seem to make alot of sense. Are white's attacking chances really that good?

I look at it as white getting a balanced attack on the whole board with a focus on the kingside - unlike some positions where one side has a clear superiority on one side and the other side on the other.

White gets free-er development for his pieces, usually gets the e5 square for the knight. One of the keys is not to trade off the minor pieces "for no reason". Each pair of minor pieces that gets traded shifts things over to black. You've got to get something for the trade (more space, bishop pair, tempo, change in pawn structure, etc.) if you're going to do it.

Lastly, the panov attack often reaches positions more commonly classified as from the Nimzo-Indian or the Queen's Gambit Tarrasch.

Doubly lastly, here are some comments on tempi in the Panov attack. I'm going to paraphrase Jon Speelman in his book on the Caro. White is basically playing a Tarrasch Defense to the QGD with an extra tempo. So, if black's position really were all that good, he should be able to play the line with ...g6, which on the white side is the best setup against the Tarrasch. But because he's down a tempo, playing ...g6 involves a pawn sacrifice. It is not clear that black can forcefully win back the pawn, and even if he does he often ends up with a poor position. Therefore black usually chooses to play a line without ...g6 (such as playing ...e6) but in these lines white gets "normal" play for the isolani.

And here is my own observation: Tempi are so important in this opening that if black just plays dxc4 right away (without the typical wait for white to play Bd3 first) then black is much worse. It is odd that if a tempo goes to black (i.e. a regular Tarrasch, then black is better, if another tempo goes to white (via dxc4 without Bd3) then black is much worse, and with the normal Panov, white has the "regular Panov edge".

Of course there is no really good plan against the Caro-Kann, but you can investigate the early f4 lines in the Classical. Opposite wing castling in the main lines is interesting too. But wehatever yo9u try, Black is fine, following advice in Houska's book or mine.

The lines where White plays Ne2-f4 are tricky and highly  practical. No more than equality, but I think that is all you are after.

Alright, thanks for the explanations and ideas guys. I am very interested in doing some analysis on the panov attack and isolated queen pawn positions in general. I have not completely given up the mainline yet, I may look into the Ne2-f4 lines, I remember Tal played that a couple times in his world championship match with Botvinnik and it led to some interesting stuff.

Mr. Schiller,

Good to have you on board!

Extremely informative thread!  One of the best I've read on this site.  Thanks very much for the insightful comments.

I used to play the Caro-Kann alot with black. My opponents rarely get into the Panov attack, they prefer the advance variation most of the times. Here's my experience with it (from the white side). Early f4 is a common idea. Nf3 is playable as well. I believe white's attack revolves around the move f5 and the consequently weakened e6 pawn, which I have always found to be a problem. The f5 advance is often sustained by the queen on d3 (or, if black plays c4, d2). Also, it is possible for white to maneuver his b1 knight towards the kingside, I've seen this very often as well. Rook invasions on f7 after the exchange on e6 are a common theme as well. Also, one line I am really afraid of, as black, is the following:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. g4!

Bear that in mind as an alternative as well. Hope this is of any use.

NM Ozzie, I watched some of your games in live chess when you playey the Caro-Kahn ( in fact it is where i learnt to play Qa5+ then Qa6 after white has recaptured my light squared bishop on d3). Please can you either teach me the Caro-Kahn (maybe in my dreams xD ) or point me in the right direction, either with reccomended books or example games? Thanks!

Why is everybody giving the f3 system such a hard time?? When played the right way, it is a good way to meet the caro kann. Just one example:

Oh well i had recently a very nice game (Cora Kann:ulysses)
http://blog.chess.com/PeterArt/black-defense-and-attack

It was verry tactical Dough easy to play i ended with a real strong defense base.
From which I finaly checkmated white.

My opinion on the ideas mentioned here:

1. An early f4 by white is very weak. Usually it can be met by some combination of h5 and Ng8-h6-f5 or Ng8-e7-f5. Black can also choose to play g6.
2. In my games, white almost never gets a chance to play f5. I agree that f4 would be strong if white can get f5 in, but it just doesn't work out that way for white, in my games.
3. Against 4.g4 mentioned above, I also think of this as a weak move. I usually retreat the bishop to d7, and play Qc8 and h5. If white sees this coming then h5 is a pawn sac by black, to reassert control over the light squares. If white does not see it coming, then h5 seizes the initiative.
4. Apparently there are many lines involving 4.g4 Bg6 5.e6, but these have never been "my cup of tea". I read somewhere else on this site that black "is ok after 5. ... Qd6" but again, I prefer to play 4. ... Bd7.

I don't think that 1.e4 c6 2.Ke2 is a very good opening.

In my blog I have posted some games with the advance variation. Don't be fooled by the head line "Caro-Kann, Advance Variation, winning against white pawn storms" because even I won those games with the black pieces you can see from the games that there were great chances for white as well as for black:

http://blog.chess.com/BlueKnightShade/caro-kann-advance-variation-winning-against-white-pawn-storms