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Basic/ begginer question about black openings?


  • 20 months ago · Quote · #1

    chessteenager

    I was watching a chess video today on youtube and the guy commentating was at least 2400 fide rated. He said that there is a reason when black plays 1...e5 against 1.e4 that all grandmasters play the Ruy Lopez, and this is because Ruy Lopez is the only opening against 1...e5 that really trys hard for an advantage. In all other lines black is okay and can gain easy equality. If this is true wouldnt this make 1...e5 the best response to 1.e4?

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #2

    chessteenager

    I mean try to understand my reasoning. If ruy is the only challenge to 1...e5 players then all you have to do is find a line and over study it for example the schliemann and youll be fine. Where opposed tot he french where white can reach a heavy advantage through almost all lines besides the exchange lol 

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #3

    chessteenager

    But there are specific lines that black can learn and master. Verys imple lines. Like the Cordel and the cozio. 

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #4

    blasterdragon

    i think the guys facts are incorrect not all grandmasters play the ruy lopez although it is certainly is the most popular and black doesn't gain easy equality in the other lines just easier than the ruy lopez and really best is oppinion based i for one do not like e5 although it is a perfectly viable option because white has the intitive in most of the lines unless black wants to play a gambit so i like playing c5 however e5 is more solid and is recommended for begininers as well its also played at top level so you can't really have the 'best' opening from an objective standpoint

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #5

    sapientdust

    chessteenager wrote:

    I was watching a chess video today on youtube and the guy commentating was at least 2400 fide rated. He said that there is a reason when black plays 1...e5 against 1.e4 that all grandmasters play the Ruy Lopez, and this is because Ruy Lopez is the only opening against 1...e5 that really trys hard for an advantage. In all other lines black is okay and can gain easy equality. If this is true wouldnt this make 1...e5 the best response to 1.e4?

    Your logic is incorrect. If it were true that when White played 1.e4 and Black played 1...e5, the Ruy Lopez were the only opening that has good chances for a White advantage, then it would follow [subject to some additional assumptions] that the Ruy Lopez is the best opening for White if he plays 1.e4 and his opponent plays 1...e5. But it would say nothing about whether 1...e5 is the best response to 1.e4. In fact, it's quite possible that Black could have an easier time fighting for equality in other responses to 1.e4. I'm not stating whether that is the case or not, only that it does not follow at all that "this makes 1...e5 the best response to 1.e4", as you stated.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #6

    baddogno

    [COMMENT DELETED]I misread the OP's question-sorry.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #7

    chessteenager

    sapientdust wrote:
    chessteenager wrote:

    I was watching a chess video today on youtube and the guy commentating was at least 2400 fide rated. He said that there is a reason when black plays 1...e5 against 1.e4 that all grandmasters play the Ruy Lopez, and this is because Ruy Lopez is the only opening against 1...e5 that really trys hard for an advantage. In all other lines black is okay and can gain easy equality. If this is true wouldnt this make 1...e5 the best response to 1.e4?

    Your logic is incorrect. If it were true that when White played 1.e4 and Black played 1...e5, the Ruy Lopez were the only opening that has good chances for a White advantage, then it would follow [subject to some additional assumptions] that the Ruy Lopez is the best opening for White if he plays 1.e4 and his opponent plays 1...e5. But it would say nothing about whether 1...e5 is the best response to 1.e4. In fact, it's quite possible that Black could have an easier time fighting for equality in other responses to 1.e4. I'm not stating whether that is the case or not, only that it does not follow at all that "this makes 1...e5 the best response to 1.e4", as you stated.

    I dont understand. If X=y then clearly y=X. 

    The way grandmasters play the Ruy Lopez against 1.e4...e5 it is a 10:1 ratio against how many times they play the italian. Therefore, yes i am saying the Ruy must be the best opening to try for something for white against 1...e5. All other lines in 1.e4...e5 just lead to much easier equality for black. THEREFORE, wouldnt 1...e5 be the best choice as opposed to the sicilian, caro kann, and french study time wise? When playing 1.e4...c5 black has to be ready for all kinds of stuff. EVERYTHING that deviates from the open sicilian and honestly those weird trys (1.e4...c5,2.Nf3...d6,3.Bb5) are some very under rated strong lines. In the caro kann black has to keep up to date with newest advanced, panov, exchange, classical, and fantasy variations. not to mention two knights. It just sounds to me like 1...e5 maybe isnt as much theory as we thought and  the masters have proven that the Ruy now a days is the only realistic try. 

    @moses if that were true then masters would start with 1.b3 or 1.na3 all the time because they want to theortetically out prepare their opponent. Some openings will just never be refuted no matter how much at home prep you do. 

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #8

    Andre_Harding

    chessteenager:

    The Ruy Lopez is certainly the strongest opening against 1...e5. But there is so much complexity (as others have noted) that playing 1...e5 is still not "easy," or even "easier" than playing other main openings.

    You mention the many variations of the Caro-Kann and French as an example. First of all, serious Caro-Kann players are only worried about the Advance and in some cases the Classical. The other stuff is just sidelines, and are decent, but the Caro expert would feel comfortable against them. The French player would have many choices in how they could shape their repertoire, and it's not really hard to do. I would say that the French is one of the easiest openings to learn and play well--up to 1900 OTB I didn't really have to study anything and could wheel it out game after game with good results.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #9

    baddogno

    And when in doubt, we could always check the statistics.  Chess.com doesn't have the greatest database in the world (only 1.5 million games) but let's see what black's winning % is against 1. e4.  With 1..e5, it's 26.8%; with 1...c5, it's 32.5%.  So much for 1...e5 being blacks best try for a win.  As to what the rest of us patzers should do, the OP has an interesting theory and who knows?  Maybe prepping mostly for the Ruy will be a strong strategy.  Me, I'm going back to the tactics trainer.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #10

    sapientdust

    chessteenager wrote:
    sapientdust wrote:
    chessteenager wrote:

    I was watching a chess video today on youtube and the guy commentating was at least 2400 fide rated. He said that there is a reason when black plays 1...e5 against 1.e4 that all grandmasters play the Ruy Lopez, and this is because Ruy Lopez is the only opening against 1...e5 that really trys hard for an advantage. In all other lines black is okay and can gain easy equality. If this is true wouldnt this make 1...e5 the best response to 1.e4?

    Your logic is incorrect. If it were true that when White played 1.e4 and Black played 1...e5, the Ruy Lopez were the only opening that has good chances for a White advantage, then it would follow [subject to some additional assumptions] that the Ruy Lopez is the best opening for White if he plays 1.e4 and his opponent plays 1...e5. But it would say nothing about whether 1...e5 is the best response to 1.e4. In fact, it's quite possible that Black could have an easier time fighting for equality in other responses to 1.e4. I'm not stating whether that is the case or not, only that it does not follow at all that "this makes 1...e5 the best response to 1.e4", as you stated.

    I dont understand. If X=y then clearly y=X. 

    The way grandmasters play the Ruy Lopez against 1.e4...e5 it is a 10:1 ratio against how many times they play the italian. Therefore, yes i am saying the Ruy must be the best opening to try for something for white against 1...e5. All other lines in 1.e4...e5 just lead to much easier equality for black. THEREFORE, wouldnt 1...e5 be the best choice as opposed to the sicilian, caro kann, and french study time wise? When playing 1.e4...c5 black has to be ready for all kinds of stuff. EVERYTHING that deviates from the open sicilian and honestly those weird trys (1.e4...c5,2.Nf3...d6,3.Bb5) are some very under rated strong lines. In the caro kann black has to keep up to date with newest advanced, panov, exchange, classical, and fantasy variations. not to mention two knights. It just sounds to me like 1...e5 maybe isnt as much theory as we thought and  the masters have proven that the Ruy now a days is the only realistic try. 

     

    I'm not sure what the "X=y" and "y=X" pseudoformalism is supposed to mean. You were confusing two issues. A: "whether the Ruy Lopez is White's best strategy to a Black player who plays 1...e5 against White's 1.e4"; B: "whether 1...e5 is Black's best strategy against a White player who opens with 1.e4". These have no logical relation. It's perfectly possible for it to be "White's best strategy to play the Ruy Lopez whenever Black responds to his 1.e4 with 1...e5" and yet at the same time be "Black's best strategy to play something other than 1...e5 in response to White's 1.e4". For example, the Ruy Lopez might be White's best response to "1.e4 e5", and "1...c5" might be Black's best response to "1.e4". Of course, it might turn out that both are true or neither is true -- that's what I meant by there being no logical relation.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #11

    Andre_Harding

    baddogno wrote:

    And when in doubt, we could always check the statistics.  Chess.com doesn't have the greatest database in the world (only 1.5 million games) but let's see what black's winning % is against 1. e4.  With 1..e5, it's 26.8%; with 1...c5, it's 32.5%.  So much for 1...e5 being blacks best try for a win.  As to what the rest of us patzers should do, the OP has an interesting theory and who knows?  Maybe prepping mostly for the Ruy will be a strong strategy.  Me, I'm going back to the tactics trainer.

    Be careful with the statistics of a huge database; anyway, I would suspect that in addition to winning more games with 1...c5, Black also loses more games with it too, as compared to 1...e5.

    At International level the Ruy Lopez is the most common opening after 1.e4 e5, but at lower levels White players use all kinds of stuff.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #12

    baddogno

    For those who don't have access to the master games database here:  In response to e4, black plays 1...c5 318k times and white wins 37.6%, draws 29.9% and loses 32.5%.  When black plays 1...e5, it's 150k games with white winning 38%, drawing 35.3%, and losing 26.8%.  All of which has nothing to do with the way the rest of us play.   I'm going to bed, Good Night.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #13

    chessteenager

    Im in love with 1...e5 regardless. Lol thank you everyone for the input. But why would the french be one of the easiest openings to learn?

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #14

    mauriciolopezsr

    The Ruy Lopez is a very good choice for white as it holds at least a lasting advantage for white in most lines with almost no risk, Capablanca and Alekine score impressive victories with the simple exchange variation. This is why I almost always play C5 (Sicilian Defense) to E4. The Sicilian leads to imbalnaced positions where the better player almost always omes up on top; this is why it was Fischer's favorite opening against E4; the Caro Cann is also very solid and hard to crack for white.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #15

    mauriciolopezsr

    chessteenager wrote:

    Im in love with 1...e5 regardless. Lol thank you everyone for the input. But why would the french be one of the easiest openings to learn?

    The Fench defense is relatively simple and it may be easier to play; but you have to pay a high price for it, Black has to struggle for equality thru the end game.
  • 20 months ago · Quote · #16

    Andre_Harding

    mauriciolopezsr is right: Players 2000+ OTB make playing the French more difficult because by that level they begin to understand how to cause Black problems (cramp Black's position, splitting his forces if possible, and keeping the c8-bishop under lock and key). Still, with some serious preparation one could expect to be successful with the French as a main opening up to 2700 level. Beyond that, it's not as easy if you go by what 2700+ players play (or don't play).

    A great model to see how to play against the French positionally is Peter Leko.


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