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Bb5+ - why is it "questionable"


  • 18 months ago · Quote · #21

    waffllemaster

    You_Know_Poo wrote:

    @wafflemaster

    arriving at this position after 9 - 10 moves is easy. u can probable do it in most of the games. u could say that the advantage is because of space.

     

    But dude, this combination creeps me out sometimes because when i m playing a blitz game, and  i arrive at a similar position and i look at the board and i m blank. what move to play, which position to aim for, nothing comes to mind when u know u dont have enough time.

    just tell me what would u do next, without looking at houdini.

    As black I'd seek play on the queenside with the pawns leading the way.  a6 b5 c5.  With a different set up black may believe he can force the move d5 which would be fantastic, but white almost certainly wont allow it which leads me right into...

    As white I'd seek play in the center using my space and half open d file.  Mostly to try and tie black up.  If black stays sufficiently cramped, then tactics will appear for white.  If white is doing quite well (and black a bit negligent) he can contemplate the e5 break.

    So yeah, it's easy to feel a bit lost, especially as white IMO because your pieces will look quite good you might wonder what to do next.  Just stay centralized and prod for weaknesses (Qd2, Rd1, Re1, perhaps h3 or f3 perhaps a4).

    Sorry, I think that's kind of vague but that's the best I can verbalize it.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #22

    LongIslandMark

    waffllemaster wrote:
    GreenCastleBlock wrote:

    3.Nxe5

    Hah, you're right, I didn't even look at the beginning of the game.  I just copy and pasted it and looked at Bb5+

    2...h6 is a complete waste of time.

    I have appreciated the comments on Bb5+. Thank you all for those comments.

    Part of why i didn't post the entire game was because I really wanted feedback on that move. I also saw no purpose in 2...h6. I didn't do 3. Nxe5 since at my level a pawn (or three) or even a minor up or down typically doesn't decide a Blitz game. I like to get the Knights posted on rank 6 where they cannot be ousted by a pawn, so I tend to hold them back until I can do so, and I also thought the pawn on e5 would not be long for this world.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #23

    You_Know_Poo

    c5 immediately falls to Nf5. the dark squared bishop will be exchanged and the d6 pawn will come under huge pressure. The only way to save it might be to play Ne8 but u see how bad that looks.

     

    actualy u misunderstood. i would wonder what to do with white here.

    black only has to counterplay at the least. but if white is clueless then the initiative will change hands. 

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #24

    You_Know_Poo

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 18 months ago · Quote · #25

    NimzoRoy

    Always check it might be mate. This is one chess maxim you shouldn't take too seriously esp the way your opponent played. 6.Bc4 looks good bearing down on f7 and developing a piece and preparing to castle (by developing the K-side ASAP) Click on the link below for some useful advice from several GMs on general opening principles, which will help you out when facing sub-standard opening play (or even standard openings)

    http://www.chess.com/blog/NimzoRoy/chess-opening-principles?_domain=old_blog_host&_parent=old_frontend_blog_view

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #26

    waffllemaster

    @ you_know_poo
    Oh, I just noticed you asked specifically about black.  Sometimes in these philidor defense structures black tries for his f5 break as well.

    It can be psychologically difficult if you feel like every move has to do something.  The philidor is solid but black has to be ok with defending for a good number of moves.  Just know it's difficult for white too... his position looks great to him, but none of his moves can threaten anything.  I suggest playing over games of strong players to see what some standard maneuvers are.

    Or if you want something more dynamic go ahead and let a ruy happen and play 2...Nc6.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #27

    waffllemaster

    You_Know_Poo wrote:

    c5 immediately falls to Nf5. the dark squared bishop will be exchanged and the d6 pawn will come under huge pressure. The only way to save it might be to play Ne8 but u see how bad that looks.

     

    actualy u misunderstood. i would wonder what to do with white here.

    black only has to counterplay at the least. but if white is clueless then the initiative will change hands. 

    I'm not saying to play c5 immediatly in the position I gave.  Just that it's an idea that may be good (and may be bad!) later in the game.

    Sorry I can't help you with white more.  I'd suggest playing over games of strong players to see some standard maneuvers.  At the club I usually pile on d6 and e5 as much as possible and try to get e5 in.  Because the people who play this against me aren't so amazing they usually let me get it with great effect.  The few I remember I've had online have just been careful maneuvering of the pieces trying to get an edge.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #28

    You_Know_Poo

    the last point is really juicy. in the sense that u can work on it a lot. it is also very imp because it is a very big factor in deciding how the middlegame is gonna proceed.

    GM Suetin's four principles for advanced players
              * The fight for control of the center                
              * The striving for the quickest and most active development.
              * The creation of conditions that permit early castling.
              * The formation of an advantageous pawn structure


     @wafflemaster

    yeah. going after moves of strong players gains you better positions. but you do get my point of being rather clueless after 10 moves or so. it most happens to me in english. so i hv completely abandoned it with white.

    @LongIsland

    i m sure the above rules will help u improve ur game. but u will have to co-relate them with ur own games.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #29

    You_Know_Poo

    @NimzoRoy

    ur sentence is so true in the other sense--

    always check, it might be mate. (implying that u should not discredit ur opponent's most recent move no matter how big ur advantage is)## (even kramnik missed it against deep blue)

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #30

    LongIslandMark

    You_Know_Poo wrote:

    [...]

    GM Suetin's four principles for advanced players

              * The fight for control of the center                
              * The striving for the quickest and most active development.
              * The creation of conditions that permit early castling.
              * The formation of an advantageous pawn structure

    [...]

    Thanks for the reminders on the basics - it never hurts. Trouble always is making it happen - cheers!

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #31

    Gil-Gandel

    Note that 3. Nxe5 doesn't keep the pawn for long after 3. ... Qe7, when the Knight will have to move sooner or later and the e-pawn falls. Nevertheless 2. ...h6 is not good.

    Bb5+ as played is not outright bad, but it's a check to nothing, and after ... c6 Black doesn't even have to be in too much hurry to chase the Bishop further. In a line like this it looks like Black probably wants the c6 pawn to keep White pieces off d5 - there are well-known lines in the Philidor Defence where it's needed for exactly this reason.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #32

    LongIslandMark

    @Gil-Gandel - thanks for your comments. Always much appreciated. I will study your and the others comments and try to incorporate the learning into my play.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #33

    GreenCastleBlock

    LongIslandMark wrote:

    Part of why i didn't post the entire game was because I really wanted feedback on that move. I also saw no purpose in 2...h6. I didn't do 3. Nxe5 since at my level a pawn (or three) or even a minor up or down typically doesn't decide a Blitz game. I like to get the Knights posted on rank 6 where they cannot be ousted by a pawn, so I tend to hold them back until I can do so, and I also thought the pawn on e5 would not be long for this world.

    You're quite generous, then.  More people should play blitz with you.

    3.Nxe5 Qe7 (otherwise White will be a pawn up)  4.d4 d6 5.Nf3 Qxe4+ 5.Be2 followed by O-O and with very simple moves White has achieved a good position.  Black's Q is exposed on e4 and will lose more time.  White also has a slight space advantage; Black can play ..d5 but that loses yet another tempo.  White can play Re1 and take control of the e file early in the game.  What more do you want from the opening??

    Your reasoning for declining Black's pawn on e5 on move 2 is wrong-headed and nonsensical.  You should have said: It's Blitz, I was moving too fast and didn't see it was unprotected.  Everybody makes these types of errors from time to time.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #34

    LongIslandMark

    @GreenCastleBlock - I see what you are saying. It wasn't Blitz - it was a deliberate choice. I'm playing too passively. 3. Nxe5 also has the possibility, after eventually as you continue Re1, Bb5+ with the discovered attack on the Queen. I think one reason I'm stuck in the 900's is I do, at least subconsciously, play down a bit (a lot) when matched against a lower rated player.

    Maybe I just want a fun game, so playing down helps with that, or a cheap trap, but it's not helping my rating nor my learning.

    @coneheadzombie - thanks for the comments, same general response.

    What are your experiences? Is it typical for you to lose 9 out of 10 against a player rated 100+ and win 9 out of 10 against a player rated -100? Or is that just me?

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #35

    LongIslandMark

    @coneheadzombie - Yes, I know (more now than before this thread). But it helps you pointing it out (again). Sincere thanks.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #36

    ItsEoin

    coneheadzombie wrote:

    See, there you go with the ratings again.

    His ratings are, however, the only practical gauge of his progress (or anybody else's, for that matter). It's not totally unreasonable to harp on about them, really. Especially when his question referred to how much other people play down or don't play down in relation to their opponent's strength as opposed to just ratings. 

    In response to your question, I think that I do a lot better than 1/10 against somebody 100 points higher than me. Maybe I'll lose 9 from 10 against someone 300 points higher, but up to that I'd hope to get at least 2 wins and a draw in there. That could be about my level, though, too; and diminishing returns and the learning curve and what have you. I certainly don't beat somebody 100 lower than me 9/10 times.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #37

    LongIslandMark

    As for the 1 in 10 stats, I suspect it is not linear based on your rating. It's a bell curve so folks on the edges (very low or very high from the average) will see a more significant difference +/- 100 in playing strength from their own rating than folks near the average.

    Reviewing games from before the other night, I think I was playing, subconciously or otherwise, less well against lower rated players - perhaps just to have a fun game, perhaps because I told myself I didn't need to think that hard.

    We have gotten pretty far off topic from my original post, why that opening move was good or not so good. But I did appreciate all the comments.

    P.S. If anyone takes the trouble to review my games from the other night (please don't), they are not typical - got myself losing stupidly many games in a row since I was at a neighborhood party the other night, lifted too many beers to be standing, and decided the best thing to do was play some chess.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #38

    Hoopy

    Noticing 3.Nxe5 is more important than thinking about 6.Bb5+?! right now.

    This shows why 2.Nf3 is a good move, develop a piece and attack at the same time.  Simple stuff I know but still important.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #39

    nameno1had

    Bc4 is superior because it assails the center, develops a new piece, completes necesaary development for castling and doesn't lose a tempo having to retreat the bishop, there by giving black the initiative...

    ...having said, Bb5+ is playable, but a small inaccuracy like this can make a difference against stronger players...


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