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Beginners should learn e4/e5 openings first


  • 10 months ago · Quote · #61

    DrCheckevertim

    Why do you believe e4/e5 leads to disaster?

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #62

    aggressivesociopath

    ipcress12 wrote:

    So far I'm mostly seeing onus shifting.

    I'm not claiming that the French or other non-e5 openings are better for beginners. I'm saying I doubt that 1...e5 is a crucial developmental stage for beginners. The onus is on those who wish to make that claim to support it and they aren't.

    Aside from handwaving about how open positions logically coming before closed,  the need for tactical experience, and the notion that e4/e5 are somehow more fundamental, I'm not hearing anything persuasive.

    Back in the Steinitz era everyone knew that you occupied the center directly and if you didn't, you had violated a fundamental truth about chess.

    A few decades later Nimzovich, Reti and other mavericks overturned that conventional wisdom for good. They didn't prove that occupying the center was the wrong approach; they showed it wasn't the only approach.

    That's what I'm saying. If a beginner wants to focus on e4/e5, more power to him. If he wants to play the French or whatever and ignore the e4/e5 complexities, he can. Maybe he needs to revisit that choice later at 1800, 2000, or 2200, but as a beginner, if he doesn't want to, he doesn't have to.

    I'm saying that e4/e5 is just not that important for beginners. If a beginner wants to focus on something crucial, he should study tactics, so a fork, pin, discovered check, zwishenzug or backrow mate doesn't eat his lunch in game after game.

    No. You started this thread with what I assume to be retorical questions. The burden of production and the burden of persuasion remains with you. Prove that playing 1. e4 e5 is not crucial for improvement; you are advancing this point as a thesis, the burden is not on others to disprove it.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #63

    bean_Fischer

    DrCheckevertim wrote:

    Why do you believe e4/e5 leads to disaster?

    There are so many reasons. As White, can you play Italian, Scotch, Ruy, 4 knights, gambits, etc? And a bunch of openings that Black doesn't reply e5. If you can, you deserve high rating.

    As Black, What if white play KG? Are you prepared with your refutation?

    When you get to 1600, there are many good players at that level. Can you survive all of them?

    e4/e5 is an opening played by almost all players. Each of them has their own version, or call it variation. If you play 1000 of these players, there is a very good chance that you play at least 200 versions or variations. They are prepared variations, so you have to be very good at those 200 versions to escape.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #64

    kikvors

    bean_Fischer schreef:
    DrCheckevertim wrote:

    Why do you believe e4/e5 leads to disaster?

    There are so many reasons. As White, can you play Italian, Scotch, Ruy, 4 knights, gambits, etc? And a bunch of openings that Black doesn't reply e5. If you can, you deserve high rating.

    As Black, What if white play KG? Are you prepared with your refutation?

    When you get to 1600, there are many good players at that level. Can you survive all of them?

    That's not an argument -- all openings have lots of variations. You don't explain why the variations after 1.e4 e5 are more disastrous than those of any other openings.

    And what 1600 players do is in my view quite irrelevant to the discussion, because 1600 players are either beginners or players who didn't learn chess properly. If you did learn chess properly and are not a beginner, then you'll be way better than 1600.

    Are there top players who never played 1.e4 e5?

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #65

    TitanCG

    It doesn't have anything to do with theory. Open games usually give more chances for tactics and simple deveopment. 

    I mean if people enjoy pirc and French and all that they should play it. It seems to me that the knowledge required to play such things is hard to come by and unnecessary to win club games.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #66

    royalbishop

    Not 100% .... i know some people with Unorthodox thinking

    and they want to jump in the deep side of the pool and good at it.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #67

    PhoenixTTD

    I am an e4/e5 player and even though I have most of my experience here, when I do get trapped in the opening it is usually an e4 game.  When white plays d4 I am not as comfortable but I don't get in trouble.  If white plays e4, the main defense should be e5 until you learn to play the sicilian.  e6??  I really don't get the french, but 1...e5 defends against 2 e5.  At least at my level french players cannot convince me to play into their prep.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #68

    harryz

    PhoenixTTD wrote:

    I am an e4/e5 player and even though I have most of my experience here, when I do get trapped in the opening it is usually an e4 game.  When white plays d4 I am not as comfortable but I don't get in trouble.  If white plays e4, the main defense should be e5 until you learn to play the sicilian.  e6??  I really don't get the french, but 1...e5 defends against 2 e5.  At least at my level french players cannot convince me to play into their prep.

    2 e5 is really the biggest threat u can think of? except in the alekhine defense, i would never play 2 e5, even if my opponent does a crazy move like h5. 2 e5 is not a reason to be scared of playing the french

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #69

    TitanCG

    After 1.e4 e6 2.e5 2.c5 White may never play d4 and get pawns in the center. Meanwhile Black can attack the practically isolated e-pawn over and over again. Maybe you will like the exchange variation better.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #70

    bean_Fischer

    kikvors wrote:
    bean_Fischer schreef:
    DrCheckevertim wrote:

    Why do you believe e4/e5 leads to disaster?

    There are so many reasons. As White, can you play Italian, Scotch, Ruy, 4 knights, gambits, etc? And a bunch of openings that Black doesn't reply e5. If you can, you deserve high rating.

    As Black, What if white play KG? Are you prepared with your refutation?

    When you get to 1600, there are many good players at that level. Can you survive all of them?

    That's not an argument -- all openings have lots of variations. You don't explain why the variations after 1.e4 e5 are more disastrous than those of any other openings.

    And what 1600 players do is in my view quite irrelevant to the discussion, because 1600 players are either beginners or players who didn't learn chess properly. If you did learn chess properly and are not a beginner, then you'll be way better than 1600.

    Are there top players who never played 1.e4 e5?

    I have said whaever your argument, you can't change my belief. I will not play e4e5 if not forced by a thematic tournament.

    Top players can play anything they want.You don't have to tell them what they should or shouldn't play. You are not there yet.

    I have played those games with e4/e5, where I was crushed by

    I suppose you learn chess properly. Do you think you can better rating? Maybe it's because you play e4e5 but don't get higher rating.

    If opponents to play, play my game: Sicilian, French, and many other openings that I can use not to play their e4e5.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #71

    bean_Fischer

    I want to make it clear. It's your choice to play e4e5. If you like an open tactical game, then you can play e4e5. Chess is for fun.

    Play your game, not somebody else. I have found that I like to play positional game. I save my tactical game for my opponent who challenge me to open my closed game. Well, sometimes I open the game myself for my tactical.

  • 10 months ago · Quote · #72

    pepli222

    well .. e4-e5 will starts a tactical playing style (attacking,combination,sacrifice,etc) from both side when it comes to the middle game so it takes more attention.


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