I was wondering if is better to play through the Scandanavian as White 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 or if it is possible to get a good game out of 1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3. I started using it because I enjoy sharp games rather than slow ones. But I don't want to use it if the position in the Blackmar-Dimeir Gambit is inferior to White's side of the Scandanavian defense. Whaddaya think I should do?

After doing a bit of snooping, I've found the Scandanavian Portuguese Variation 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg5+ not bad for Black. I might start using this as Black, but as White I'd still like to find another response to 1...d5.

If you wanted to use the Blackmar Diemer, then you should play 1. d4.  Almost any natural moves against the Scandinavian will get you +/=. 

Anthony --

    As a long-time BDGer, I can offer some insight here. 

    The problem with your reasoning is there is a LOT of theory with respect to the BDG, much more so than just optimal lines against the Center-Counter/Scandanavian.  This is particularly true because of the move order, since after 1. e4 d5 2. d4 de 3. Nc3, black has not yet committed to 3...Nf6.  Thus, along with all the 3...Nf6 4. f3 ef 5. Nxf3 (which include 5...e6, 5...g6, 5...Bg4, 5...Bf5, 5...c6, not to mention the popular replies 4...Bf5 and 4. ...e3), you also have to contend with moves like 3...e5.  If you have to know that much theory, it begs the question why not just play 1. d4 to begin with?

     That said, I am now a regular 1. e4 player, although I use the BDG (or forms thereof) against the Center Counter, Alekhine's, French, and Caro-Kann defenses.  Once one has already invested in the theoretical knowledge of the opening, getting a chance to employ it against a number of black options certainly makes it an economical choice.  But for someone relatively new to the gambit, I would say you probably do yourself a disservice by not investing more time in simple variations against those defenses than trying to master a myriad of BDG lines where you simply have to know the moves. 

    Want an example of BDG craziness?  How about 1. d4 d5 2. e4 de 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 ef 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Ne4!?

 

Take the bishop and your king goes for a stroll after 8...Qh4+ 9. Ke2 Qf2+ 10. Kd3 Nc5+ 11. dc Na6 etc.

Taking the Knight (8. Nxe4) doesn't help matters terribly after 8...Bxe4 hitting the rook and still threatening 9...Qh4+.  This is just one of a myriad of examples in BDG theory where just having an idea of what to do is simply not good enough.  You either know the lines...or you don't.  (Incidentlally, FYI, the theoretically best continuation from the diagram is 8. Bb5+ c6 9. O-O!? and the craziness continues)

And strategically simple lines which yield sharp play are available against all of black's 1. e4 defenses where BDG themes might be employed.  For example, against the Alekhine's, there's nothing wrong with 1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e5 (instead of the BDG 3. d4) d4 4. ef dc 5. fg cd+ 6. Bxd2 Bxg7 7. Qh5, followed by 8. O-O-O (7...Bxb2?? 8. Qb5+).  The resulting positions are quite open and sharp, with the person more familiar with them (obviously) having the advantage.

That's my .02

Thanx for the replies. Guess I'll be sticking to the Center Counter.

The reason black doesn't play d5 against e4 much more often is because there are fewer prospects for equality than the other choices (e5 and c5) that are more popular. I think that a master would typically take on d5, unless there were specific circumstances (perhaps white knows the BDG cold and knows that black tends to spend a lot of time in the opening trying to "figure it out" and it is bound to get a time advantage...)

The Blackmar Diemer Gambit is slightly unsound, so if you know the theory, then you shouldn't fear it if you play the Scandinavian. However, most people will play 2. exd5, to which I would answer 2... Nf6.

As others have said, 'natural moves' tend to lead to a +/= or = against the Scandianvian (although Black will be more familiar with the positions), so the mainlines are a good way to go (with a bit of study on move orders if the +/= is important). The BDG is a sharp attack but your typical Scandinavian player will know one of the (many) defenses and you may have to know some theory about each to break it down... in some lines White must know when to sac the exchange. Alot of work if you only occasionally meet the Center Counter, and otherwise don't play the BDG as White.

It's probably better to stick with the center counter. One line that confused me was 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 e5 5.dxe5 Bb4 6.Bd2 Nc6 7.a3 Nd4! 8.Ne2 and I'm not sure what Black has here. One site showed 8...Bg4 9.f3 Nxf3+ 10.gxf3 Bxf3 11.axb4 Qxe5 12.Bf4 and Black is screwed.

The mainline is not 5...e5 but rather 5...c6 or 5...Nf6.

But that's not uncommon. Many sites that publish refutations show 100% correct moves for White and one or more second-best moves for Black. ;)

Please, please play the Blackmar Diemer. Not just that, but the Ryder Gambit. Aside from having a lot of surprise value, it is actually a really strong opening too!

The Gambit King

If your opponent really were a Scandinavian know-it-all he would've played 6...Qg4, though the Ryder Gambit is much more likely to take an opponent out of his book than the mainline BDGs. In fact, I didn't have a good reply in my repertoire, so thanks for sharing. :)

Maybe, but Q-KKt5 (g4) doesn't look quite good enough. First off, white could safely retreat the queen to KB2, but also white might be happy with a queen exchange after 7. B-K2 QxQ 8. KtxQ when white has so many developed pieces it's not even funny! Furthermore, after Q-KKt5, white could play Kt-Q5, threatening to undermine the knight and if queens are traded gain a move by recapturing with the other knight. Definitely not 'foolproof' but the Ryder is one of my favourite strategies since it sacrifices two pawns. Btw, if you want to have even more fun with gambits, come join and post on the "Gambit Gang" forums here: http://www.chess.com/groups/home/the-gambit-gang

The Gambit King

If you are trying to play the center counter as white, the chances are fairly small that your oppenent will play 1...d5. However, the normal Center Counter (+=) is more sound than the BDG(=+).

bobobbob wrote:

If you are trying to play the center counter as white, the chances are fairly small that your oppenent will play 1...d5. However, the normal Center Counter (+=) is more sound than the BDG(=+).

Wow, you're pretty good there. I didn't know you could completely discredit an opening in just one sentence using plus and equal signs. The Blackmar Diemer Gambit is definitely the right move since it gains initiative, while in the Centre Counter white can get into trouble fast if he's not careful. Example:

The Gambit King

Wow, you're pretty good there. I didn't know you could completely discredit an opening in just one sentence using plus and equal signs. The Blackmar Diemer Gambit is definitely the right move since it gains initiative, while in the Centre Counter white can get into trouble fast if he's not careful.

 

Gambitking, I think:

1. You just did the same thing in your second sentence that you dismissed in the first (and in one sentence, no less, no more!).

2. Bob's assessment, although frustratingly terse, is probably more accurate than yours. I would love to think of the "initiative at all costs" as the way to go, but it just doesn't work that way. Tom Purser used to note in the BDG Newsletter that all gambit players should learn how to play endings down a pawn - endings that are precisely, as Bob notes , "=+", just slightly better for black, but ones you can hold.

My favorite BDGs were the rewinding postal games Diemer and Gunderam used to play.

Here's why you shouldn't play the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit from a Scandinavian:

 

Ok Gambitking, I'll show main lines instead.

Blackmar-Diemer Gambit:  (on bottom)                                                    Scandinavian: (on top)

 

Bob that is a silly "main line" you give for the BDG. First of all, it looks like a Heubsch more than a BDG main... I liked your first post, don't descend into sillyness...

Gambitking wrote:

Please, please play the Blackmar Diemer. Not just that, but the Ryder Gambit. Aside from having a lot of surprise value, it is actually a really strong opening too!

 

The Gambit King

---

I was looking at this in an old book of mine.  It gives this line as a trap when 'black is completely lost'.  However, black has an equalising move:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding comments on the Scandinavian being a weak opening and getting a good position against it by making 'natural' moves:

The main reason people play this as black is exactly that white players don't know the theory and quirks of this opening.  In fact, natural moves can quickly lead to a good game for BLACK.  The best way to play aginst the Scandinavian as white, according to those who should know (by that I mean GMs who played it as black and theorists) is to allow Bg4 then play h3 and if Bh4, play g4.  This looks unnatural as it opens up the white K-side, but is actually strong.

The answer to the OP is to learn the white side of book theory in the critical lines since

     a) Scandinavian players won't like it if you don't fall into their trap

     b) it is the correct way to play chess.

That said, I'm sure plenty will disagree with me.  Especially those who like to play the BDG at any opportunity.