1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nc3

mandelshtam v Killabeez: http://www.chess.com/echess/game.html?id=9994029
another forum: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/why-play-the-dutch?page=3

13. Qe3 Na5 ? ....Ne6 is book and white is considered to be +/- BUT....

then 14. Rb1 Na5 15. Nd2 Bd7 and black has a holdable position against human beings.  White's advantage is definite +/= but there is no forced win here.

Please remember: I would rather be playing the white side in this line, but I believe black can hold these positions unless she is outrated by 200+ points.

I think a strong player (2400+) can execute and prosecute the guilty in the Nc3 lines, but as a mere "expert" I have greater trouble untangling the double pawns in the line I give above for black as best play.

For the record, the 7.Qb3 "counter-gambit" line that we discussed in the original thread fails because black isn't required to play 6...Qe7.  According to my database, black scores nearly 10% better if he doubles white's pawns immediately with 6...Bxc3.  Interestingly, CEGT testing seems to support this as the only game that white was able to win in this particular test was the game where black moved 6...Qe7.  Obviously, this proves nothing but it's certainly interesting and relevant.

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Uh Ozzie, what are you asking about?

I agree that early Bxc3 is chances best for Black.

Also, I am not a fan of the lines given for white in latest NIC yb surveys, which include the Qb3 craziness.  I just simply do not understand the play in that variation, so I avoid it.

This is why in a 5 minute $$ game I play Nc3 and at the World Open I will punt Nd2. With the greater time, I want the more solid pawn structure and the chance to create pawn breaks on the queenisde against the rigid black wall of pawns.

We're analyzing some critical lines in the Budapest Gambit (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5?!)

Also, in the link game, I do not like Ne4 in that position as much as castling for Black first.

So instead of 11. ...Ne4 as Black i would castle 11. ...0-0.  Then I think the line for white goes 12. Bg2 Re8 13. e3 h6 and white is +/= but not as good and active as in the other line.

I can only look into the comments in detail when I'm home, either at night or in the morning. So what is the current most critical line then, to either of you.

I must say I am starting with the premise that this is an unsound opening. But perhaps I am wrong. How popular is it at the top level these days?

I know little about the Budapest but my impression of it after playing it a couple of times (and playing against it a dozen times or so in online games) is that it's on par with most second player gambits not called Volga/Benko. Good for giving odds or messing about in the skittles room but to play it in a game that mattered?  Never. 

A couple of games isn't enough for an informed opinion but it was enough for me to know that I'll probably never play it again!  The games were rather dour.

I would say "not so popular" despite valiant efforts by Moskalenko to make it viable.

Although it did take me three reads to work out his precise point (I am easily conused!), I agree wholly with Gonnosuke that if you want to give up a button as black, the Volga is a better choice. 

Perhaps even sound/solid, unless one is playing at the GM level of the most prophylactic of white players such as Kramnik.  That whole Rb1 line from the Pinksi book never worked out for me as white....

But, back to critical for the Budapester, I would vote for 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nd2 and enjoy the slow squeeze White puts on the black army. 

Karpovian.

That is most definitely not the most critical line for white to play. See the title of the thread. :-)

The critical line appears to be 6...Bxc3 7.bxc3 Qe7 8.Qd5 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Qd3 d6 after which things get a little murky.  It should be noted, however, that the 6.Nc3 line has never been played in a game where both players were 2600+.  The vast majority of games in this line are played below IM strength which is a pretty damning statistic in my opinion.

Is mandelstahm (sp?) still around?  If not, it's a shame since he brought a lot to the table when discussing this sort of thing.

Yes.  I see the title. It states: "Budapest with Nc3"

I don't think mandelshtam is still around.

Gonnosuke wrote: For the record, the 7.Qb3 "counter-gambit" line that we discussed in the original thread fails because black isn't required to play 6...Qe7.  According to my database, black scores nearly 10% better if he doubles white's pawns immediately with 6...Bxc3.  Interestingly, CEGT testing seems to support this as the only game that white was able to win in this particular test was the game where black moved 6...Qe7.  Obviously, this proves nothing but it's certainly interesting and relevant.

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Reflecting on this overnight I have a problem with the word "fails". Can I restate it that 6...Qe7 is not strongest because of 7.Qb3, which leads to the improvement of 6...Bxc3+.

If you meant that it "fails" as a refutation of the opening, or it fails as being a detailed analysis of the critical lines, then ok.

Regarding post #12, what is the implication of the damning statistic? Is it that 6.Nc3 isn't played in GM-GM games, or is it that the Budapest itself is not played?

What is the most popular line (if not the most critical)?

I think you're correct to call me on it -- saying it "fails" isn't an accurate assessment.  If I was going to add this Budapest line to my opening book I'd probably give the move a ?! to indicate that it's playable but fraught with uncertainty.  Or I'd mark 6...Bxc3 with an ! to indicate that it's clearly best.  Which route I'd take depends on result of the coinflip. 

That on those rare occasions when the Budapest is played at the highest level and white moves 4.Bf4 he always opts for the Nd2 move rather than Nc3.

The most popular line in the Budapest is 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Be2 which gives the games a completely different character.

 wow... thanks for the lesson about Budapest Gonnosuke and Ozzie_C_Cobblepot

I go thru phases with openings.  At the time of the game, I was pretty confident that Black could draw the ending and put pressure because of the crippled pawns.  But as the game progressed, I realized that White just has the pawn and that the doubled pawns are not as bad as they seem.  And I resigned because I was down a pawn for no comp and I had too many games going.  So I gave up the Budapest and learned the KID and Benoni.  Hope you learned something from my game though.