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Can anyone tell me the best strategy for dealing with this?


  • 18 months ago · Quote · #1

    The_Hess

    OK so usually in Queen's gambit accepted, it is very easy to regain the pawn or if not to gain some other material advantage, however, especially in bullet chess I've been having some difficulty against this opening. Admittedly, blacks position intially looks cramped but they usually seem to able to work it out after c6, Nf6 and a fiachetto. Any advice welcome. Thanks!

     

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #2

    paulgottlieb

    First, White's much more usual 3rd moves are 3.Nf3 and 3.e4. By comparison, 3.e3 is kind of passive, and 3...Be6 is a reasonable move. I might try something like 4.Na3. But you give Black too free a hand when you play a punchless move like 3.e3

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #3

    The_Hess

    So Kasparov, Anand, Karpov, Ivanchuk, Topalov, Gelfand, Ponomariov (all have played 3.e3 more than once in this position) are "punchless"? An opening with a win percentage of 59.93 (chess.com database) for white is punchless (58.13 for e4)?

    I'm going to keep playing 3.e3. which as a lowly ~1500 player also leaves open the good old six move piece trap if black tries to keep their extra pawn with 3...b5.

    Anyone got any actual advice on how to attack this position? Obviously I can get the pawn back with Qa4+ but I don't really want to offer black the time that'll eventally give them.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #4

    JG27Pyth

    Although I agree with Paulgottleib about 3.e3, I don't think 3...Be6 is reasonable. It looks really wrong to me! ... I think 4.Nc3 is the way to go... threatening d5 at some point. I checked this in the game explorer and the stats jump around oddly owing to the mysterious (that's the kind term) way the GE treats stats for transpostions, but I think it's solid. The continuation that occurs to me is: 

    Its worth a longer look but I've used up my chess time for the day. :(

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #5

    Atos

    After 3. ...Be6, 4. Na3 looks playable. (The engine recommends it at at first, later changes its mind but certainly it looks playable.)

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #6

    rednblack

    IMO, 3. e3 is fine.  It's solid and flexible, so especially for bullet games, I don't see a problem.  To answer your question, why go after the pawn so early?  The whole point of a the gambit is to gain development and a potential attack for the pawn.  Spending moves to regain the material may let black equalize.  Nf3 and Nc3 both seem appropriate, and if black wants to develop around his c4 pawn, let her. 

    If you do want the pawn, why not go for Na3 ?

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #7

    transpo

    Move order is important.  1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3!?

     

    There is plenty of time and methods to capture the Black pawn at c4.  The theoretical response is  3.Nc3.  With 2...dxc4 Black has granted White a 2 vs. 1 pawn majority in the center and a tempo in development. 

    3.e3!? transposes to well known theoretical variations in the QGA.  

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #8

    NickYoung5

    A similar discussion (with some ideas as to how to proceed) occurred on this thread: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/help-with-qga-and-3e4

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #9

    psyduck

    i might follow that up with 4. qh5. It can move to b5, or sit there for ne2 nf4.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #10

    Osiris27

    4. Qa4+ seems playable

    Normally it leads to a loss in development as it is countered by Bd7 but since he has already moved that biship it should be fairly safe.

    Puts double pressure on the c4 pawn and if you are prepared it should lead to a good game especially in blitz.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #11

    Britneyfan

    Ne2 - idea of Nf4

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #12

    jerry2468

    Osiris27 wrote:

    4. Qa4+ seems playable

    Normally it leads to a loss in development as it is countered by Bd7 but since he has already moved that biship it should be fairly safe.

    Puts double pressure on the c4 pawn and if you are prepared it should lead to a good game especially in blitz.


    Qd7 and a trade is offered.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #13

    JG27Pyth

    Darn I lost a good post to the internet timeout god.

    In short. Consulted some opening manuals regarding QGA -- 3.e3 was considered inaccurate allowing an immediate ...e5 giving black at least equality. But, currently, according to the excellent FCO (which I recommend to all improvers -- it's not for expert + really) the reevaluation is that with 3.e3 e5 4.Bc4!? ... 3.e3 can be seen as an invitation to an interesting and dynamic white game with an IQP.

    This leaves analysis of the OPs original question, "how to handle 3...Be6?" up in the air though. To me, 3...Be6 screams mistake!  To my 2700+ elo engine it is (slightly) the BEST move for black (engine evaluation is probably why you are seeing this totally NON-book extremely rarely played by strong players move.)  I think Be6 shows the limitations of engines in opening analysis. They really aren't great at it. That line I gave in my first post is certainly not what the engine recommends against Be6 but I pursued it a little way and it seems to give White a fine game (ohhh, we see how it works -- when the engine disagrees I say engines don't know jack about the opening, but when it agrees with me I turn off the engine and pat myself on the back -- well, yes, that's exactly how it works. Wink)

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #14

    Osiris27

    jerry2468 wrote:
    Osiris27 wrote:

    4. Qa4+ seems playable

    Normally it leads to a loss in development as it is countered by Bd7 but since he has already moved that biship it should be fairly safe.

    Puts double pressure on the c4 pawn and if you are prepared it should lead to a good game especially in blitz.


    ...Qd7 and a trade is offered

    that sounds reasonable, I'd play 5.Nc3 and away we go...

    Shall we play a game :)

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #15

    JG27Pyth

    Fezzik wrote:

    Regarding the materialistic and ugly 3...Be6, it's very nasty system. QGA Experts Baburin and Flear have tried this, so it's not ridiculous.

    -- I'm soooo not convinced it's anything other than ugly -- of course my engine seems to side with "not ridiculous" but did Mssrs Baburin and Flear actually win any games with it? 

    White's most normal move, 4.Nf3, doesn't give White much. Since Black broke the rules by placing his B in front of his e6 pawn (to put it mildly)  White probably will have to break the rules too.

    That doesn't really follow imo... why can't White just gobble center, space, and develop? -- what is black playing for, hanging on to the pawn for dear life and pushing his queenside majority? If you can post or link to expert analysis I'd be interested at looking at it.

    4.Ne2, intending Nf4 is a very interesting attempt that has been successfully used by GMs. (You make it sound like this thing gets played other than rarely... db of 4 million plus games show 114 tries with 3...Be6, maybe 40 of those with the player on the black side over 2300. Not one player at the 2600+ level has played the black side in my db.)  The game Kiriakov-Baburin (2001) that White won may be the model for White's play. That's a Nf3 game...

     I did manage to find Flear losing to a slightly lower rated player using my suggestion, Nc3... I haven't searched for anyone pushing f4 early (Nf3 seems to be the preferred answer to be6 by the strong White GMs.)

     

     

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #16

    dannyhume

    Menace him with your queen. 

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #17

    The_Hess

    JG27Pyth wrote:
    Fezzik wrote:

    Regarding the materialistic and ugly 3...Be6, it's very nasty system. QGA Experts Baburin and Flear have tried this, so it's not ridiculous.

    -- I'm soooo not convinced it's anything other than ugly -- of course my engine seems to side with "not ridiculous" but did Mssrs Baburin and Flear actually win any games with it? 

    White's most normal move, 4.Nf3, doesn't give White much. Since Black broke the rules by placing his B in front of his e6 pawn (to put it mildly)  White probably will have to break the rules too.

    That doesn't really follow imo... why can't White just gobble center, space, and develop? -- what is black playing for, hanging on to the pawn for dear life and pushing his queenside majority? If you can post or link to expert analysis I'd be interested at looking at it.

    4.Ne2, intending Nf4 is a very interesting attempt that has been successfully used by GMs. (You make it sound like this thing gets played other than rarely... db of 4 million plus games show 114 tries with 3...Be6, maybe 40 of those with the player on the black side over 2300. Not one player at the 2600+ level has played the black side in my db.)  The game Kiriakov-Baburin (2001) that White won may be the model for White's play. That's a Nf3 game...

     I did manage to find Flear losing to a slightly lower rated player using my suggestion, Nc3... I haven't searched for anyone pushing f4 early (Nf3 seems to be the preferred answer to be6 by the strong White GMs.)

     

     


    I like how in the game shown, black moves his bishop almost immediately, at high level Be6 is clearly a mistakewish that helped me to deal with it.

  • 18 months ago · Quote · #18

    TheWinningGenius

    if you realy want that pawn do Na3

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #19

    Lummis

    It depends on you style of play... You may want to open up your right flank with a pawn B3Tongue out


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