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Defeating the Petroff Defense


  • 6 years ago · Quote · #1

    benedictus

    Check out this cool attack against the Petroff Defense!

     

     

     

     

     

    Material is about even (in most games where I have two pawns for a knight I win) and white's position is clearly better.

    Here's what happens if black isn't so careful.

     

     

     

     

     

    EDIT: Feel free to post advice and/or constructive criticism.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #2

    Bystanderz

    This is NOT how you "defeat" the Petrov, and 4.Nxf7 is hardly "amazing". The Cochrane Gambit is a speculative sac that should lead to no real danger for black against correct play. Plus, after 5.Bc4+ black should reply with the freeing move 5...d5. After the main continuation 6.Bb3 Be6 7.e5 Ne4 8.d4 c5 9.Qf3+ Ke8, black has a very good game.

    This opening is playable if white is well prepared and especially if it is a blitz game, but one thing is for sure: the Cochrane Gambit is not the best way to play against the Petrov and certainly does not "defeat" the Petrov with some sort of "amazing attack". Be careful with your wording.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #3

    AfafBouardi

    Your amazing attack?  lol.  We're playing a Cochrane Gambit tournament right now...we didn't know you came up with it.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #4

    Alphastar18

    Personally I think 5. Nc3 is the most testing move. The idea is then to castle kingside and slowly prepare the advance of the e and f-pawns (these are the pawns white has for his knight sacrifice). Over the whole however the gambit is very dubious.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #5

    benedictus

    Bystanderz: Here's what happens after 5... d4

     

     

     

     

     

     

    AfafBouardi: I did come up with it. I wasn't the first to do it, but I did do it without finding it in a book or something.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #6

    Bystanderz

    benedictus wrote:

    Bystanderz: Here's what happens after 5... d4

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    AfafBouardi: I did come up with it. I wasn't the first to do it, but I did do it without finding it in a book or something.


    Dude, will you at least spend some time to do a little bit of serious work before posting stupid analysis like this one? Only idiots play 6...Nxd5. Anyone who has a little bit of chess skill would find that 6...Bd6 is the correct path. The line continues: 7.O-O Rf8 8.d4 Kg8 with a clear advantage for black.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #7

    Tricklev

    Good work! Here's an opening trap I just came up with!

     

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #8

    benedictus

    After 6... Bd6

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Where's black's clear advantage now? The position is even (point out things that give black the upper hand if you disagree with me). Material is White: three pawns BLack: one knight. I would much rather have three pawns than one knight.

    PS: I analyzed this a short while after posting my previous comment. Sorry about that.

    PPS: Tricklev: Can we be a little more serious about this. Post your jokes after you've shown why this is definately bad for white.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #9

    Bystanderz

    Nc3 is fine, but delaying it does no harm and gives white more options. d4 is a move that needs to be played sooner or later if white wants to develop the c1 bishop. The problem with d3 is that it cuts off the c4 bishop from the kingside. It is crucial to be able to transfer this bishop to the kingside for defense because the bishop is virtually useless on the queenside as it bites on the d5 pawn and because black has the potential for a kingside attack. And by the way, in the final position you give, 5...Nxe4 6.dxe4 Bxe4 simply loses a pawn.

    Okay, I understand that material is even and your personal preference for three pawns over a piece, but you should realize that even material does not mean an even game, and this does not have anything to do with anybody's preference.  In the continuation I gave (which, according to theory, is the best continuation for both sides after 6.exd5), material is even, but black is better because he has a positional edge. Black has a lead in development, the open f-file, two active bishops, greater control of kingside space, and the potential for a dangerous attack against the white king. White's extra pawns aren't so useful, because 1) They don't cover many important squares except e5 and e6 2) The d5 pawn blocks the a2-g8 diagonal, blunting white's c4 bishop 3) It is not at all clear how white can push the pawns down the board to make a queen as we are not yet in the endgame (even if we are in an endgame, the fact that white's d-pawns are doubled and weak would still cause a lot of problems for him). In this middlegame, black, the side with the extra piece and a dynamic position, should be preferred.

    If you ask me why I'm so confident that black has a clear advantage, well, it is for two reasons: 1) Grandmasters aren't idiots. Modern opening theories are so deep that almost everything before move ten has been thoroughly analyzed, and the Cochrane Gambit is no exception. This opening is not discredited without a reason, and if the theory developed by grandmasters says that this line is bad for white, then the odds are: this line is bad for white! .....Okay, it's perfectly fine if you don't believe me, but you should have some faith in all the grandmasters' analysis 2) Just for the sake of this post, I put the final position I gave on my chess engine for over an hour and yielded a score of roughly -0.85, indicating a large advantage for black. True, computer analysis aren't alway accurate, but this should give you a sense of how well black is and will be doing, at least for the next 10 to 12 moves.

    Sometimes three pawns are equivalent to a piece, sometimes they can even be worth more than a piece, but this is not the case. Here, black's extra knight is considerably more important than white's extra pawns in this dynamic middlegame position, thus he has the upper hand despite the material equality (this doesn't mean black can just crash through, but that he probably will win in the long term if he plays correctly). If you so like to trade a piece for three pawns, just make sure the trade doesn't put you in a bad position. Also, you may wanna study the following games:

    http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1018838

    http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033887

    In the first, white gets three pawns and a big attack for the piece; in the second, white trades the piece for three connected passed pawns in the endgame. In this line of the Cochrane Gambit, however, white trades his knight for three pawns, and, a bunch of agonizing problems!

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #10

    MeteoricMike

    Benedictus, if you can't figure out how black gets an advantage in the final postion (in post 8) you might want to hold off on giving other people opening advice, and get stronger first.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #11

    AnthonyCG

    This sacrifice isn't worth the trouble and besides Black has an equal game and can look to come ahead. But it really isn't worth arguing with someone that says "grandmasters are idiots..." I mean that is just an idiotic thing to say.
  • 6 years ago · Quote · #12

    benedictus

    Bystanderz: Thanks for making it clear to me why this is not a good attack. I might choose to try it out a couple times, but other than that, I will take your advice.

    MeteoricMike: I'm pretty strong in most my openings. This topic was an (unsuccessfull) attempt at strengthening my opening when facing the Petrov Defense.

    AnthonyCG: When did I say grandmasters are idiots?

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #13

    richie_and_oprah

    The Cochrane Gambit is an excellent practical choice otb. 

    The defense as Black is not so easy as one would think.  White almost always is able to grab a 3rd pawn for the piece with proper play and the line to Black eqaulity is not so clear and defined as one would like.

     

    As a lifetime Russian Defense  player (otb), The Nc3 lines is really not feared at all and Black gets easy equality.  Until I see the Knight move back to f3 I am always nervous of facing the Cochrane and having to 'prove' how und sound it is.

    One of the more annoying options Black has to face is when White plays 5. d3 and transposes into an exchange French instead of the normal 5.d4.

     

    The best choice for White is the Naiditsch line (Naiditsch-Kramnik is the stem-game) as it leads to a definite White advantage +/=.  NIC yb is the place to look.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #14

    Bystanderz

    richie_and_oprah wrote:

    The Cochrane Gambit is an excellent practical choice otb. White almost always is able to grab a 3rd pawn for the piece with proper play and the line to Black eqaulity is not so clear and defined as one would like.


    Where did you get these ideas from, huh?

    Oh yeah, of course it is unclear how black can achieve equality! What a great discovery, maybe you should go convince all the GMs to take out 4.Nf3 from the book and make Cochrane Gambit the main line!

    Sure this gambit is useful in a blitz game (if white is well-prepared), but in one with classical time control? Nah-ah......Sure you can be nervous of facing the Cochrane, but that's your personal issue, and should have no effect on the overall quality of this opening.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #15

    richie_and_oprah

    From playing over 400 games of the Petrov against players fide 2200+ over the course of 30 years, that is where I "got these ideas."

     

    You may want to look at the Topalov-Kramnik Cochrane game.  You might actually learn something useful.   Then again, you may not.

    It's up to you.

     

    I have played the Petrov against GM's   Arthur Bisguier used the Cochrane against me as did Joel Benjamin.   But, I guess they are just idiots compared to the scary intellects we have posting here on the web.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #16

    Bystanderz

    richie_and_oprah wrote:

    From playing over 400 games of the Petrov against players fide 2200+ over the course of 30 years, that is where I "got these ideas."

     

    You may want to look at the Topalov-Kramnik Cochrane game.  You might actually learn something useful.   Then again, you may not.

    It's up to you.

     

    I have played the Petrov against GM's   Arthur Bisguier used the Cochrane against me as did Joel Benjamin.   But, I guess they are just idiots compared to the scary intellects we have posting here on the web.


    So what? Are you saying your personal experience of merely 400 games should be more meaningful than the opening theories GMs developed over the years?

    I have seen that game before, Topalov played impressively (though I believe that against 5.Nc3?!, theory suggests 5...Qe8! 6.Bc4+ Be6 with a good game for black), but you are not trying to tell me that the result of a single game could prove modern theories wrong, are you? Like I said earlier, preparation is paramount in this line, if white is very well prepared (like Topa was), he can be fine. But until you can prepare as well as someone like Topalov and until you are at least as knowledgable as most GMs in the world, you have no right to claim that this gambit is sound.

    Okay, a few GMs like Bisguier have played it, so what? Should the fact that a few good players used it against you imply that it is just a good opening?! It could be that they just like to play wild sacrifices against weaker opponents. Who plays what opening should not have any effect on the quality of the opening itself. If an opening is good just because a few GMs have used it, then by your logic, 1.e4 a6?! should also be a good opening, because Kamsky, Gelashvili, Miles, and Kasparov all have played it.

    Look, current opening theory is very deep, and 4.Nf3 didn't become the main line for no reason. If you are so "brilliant" as to disregard the century-long analysis and theory done by GMs all over the world and base your judgment on the results of a few games, then I don't know what to say.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #18

    Bystanderz

    Gonnosuke wrote:

    One of the things that's often overlooked when arguing against the Cochrane Gambit is the psychological component.  The Cochrane Gambit leads to positions that the typical Petroff player loathes.  Anyone who plays the Petroff wants a solid path to equality and is perfectly fine with a half point.  The gambit shakes things up in a way that most Petroff players are simply not comfortable with.  It's screws with their head -- suddenly, the game gets teleported from one where the positions make sense to one where there's a potential surprise around every corner -- they have to start worrying about playing into white's home preparation, after all who would play such a monstrosity without thorough preparation? 

    You can't dismiss the value of a good jab to the psyche of your opponent. 


    That is true. Psychological component...if my memory is correct, that's the reason Kasparov gave when he was asked why he playd 1...a6?!. However, in this post, I'm only discussing the objective quality of the opening, not its practical value. And you need to be very careful when claiming things like psychological component screws your opponents' heads. Psychological factor definitely ought to be considered when playing gambits like this, but whether or not it would actually have an effect on your particular opponent and exactly how much impact it can have remain iffy.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #19

    Alphastar18

    Nonsense. If I start playing the Petroff and my opponent plays the Cochrane gambit, I am already at a psychological advantage since he is afraid to play the mainline and is going for a swashbuckling win. It seems more desperation than confidence to me.

  • 6 years ago · Quote · #20

    richie_and_oprah

    Alphastar18 wrote:

     It seems more desperation than confidence to me.


    Appearences are decieving.

     

    I do not think GM Benjamin was desperate when he played me since he outrated me by about 400 points at the time.   I just think he wanted to win and knew the Cochrane would provide him excellent chances to do this.


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