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Does studying the English help your Reti?


  • 6 years ago · Quote · #1

    AquaMan

    I would think so, but would like to hear from those who have studied the English and played the Reti.

    I play the KIA now and have been oscillating on whether to add the Reti for a richer repertoire for white.  I think I'm gonna do it.  I had read that the English is related to the Reti, and after looking at it can see why. 

    Just from looking at the excerpts on amazon for the Starting Out: English, by McDonald, I think his move-by-move explanations of the  positions are fantastic, in the highest tradition of the Starting Out series.  So I'm tempted to buy the book anyway.  (Dynamic English, by Kosten, is probably very good too if I want to get really into the English.)

    But if I intend to open with 1.Nf3 as white, and then play KIA (usually early e4) or Reti (early c4) from there, I'm wondering how much studying the English (positions resulting from 1.c4)  will help me.

    Thanks for your thoughts.


  • 6 years ago · Quote · #2

    KillaBeez

    I am not an expert on the Reti or English, but learning the English without e5 would probably help your Reti.  But e5 makes for positions that are not usual to the Reti.  It really is a matter of taste. 
  • 6 years ago · Quote · #3

    ericmittens

    Studying the Reti Certainly helps your English!

    Lines where black plays 1...e6 or 1...c6 are not going to be in the realm of the english opening. But you can transpose into a Reti or a Catalan which are very similar to some lines of the english, specifically those in which white fiancetto's his king bishop.


  • 6 years ago · Quote · #5

    wormrose

    Hey AquaMan. You really post good topics. :-) You might deserve some popcorn for this one. I too, became interested in the English because I often play the Nimzo-Larsen Attack (A01)which sometimes transposes to the English with b3 (A12) as mentioned above. I bought it and It's a good book (as are all the Everyman Starting Out books) I haven't gotten very far into it yet. I have found it is a very different system from the NLA but at least my repertoire is expanding. I also like the KIA but have found it's easy for Black to avoid it. I will enjoy following this topic.
  • 6 years ago · Quote · #6

    AquaMan

    Thanks, everyone.  Yes, I was asking if learning the English would be helpful in playing the Reti.  Sounds like the answer so far is no.  The reason is because the Reti discourages an immediate ...e5 whereas the English allows it.  Sounds like the converse is more true.  Knowing the Reti can be useful in playing the English. The reason is because the English can sometimes transpose into a Reti-like position.  But the Reti doesn't usually transpose into an English-like position.  Is that a good summary?

    So, if I decide to learn the English, it will be for the sake of the English, and not to help the Reti.  I think it should wait then, as much as the English looks like it would be enjoyable to learn.

    I want to add the Reti to my KIA for white, first.  I think the Reti is very natural to learn after the KIA, especially since I've been playing the KIA starting from 1.Nf3 and leaving e4 until later, as in; 1.Nf3, 2.g3, 3.Bg2, 4.0-0, 5.d3, 6 Nbd2, in order to remain flexible on whether I want to push e4 or c4.  In fact Chessbase usually labels my games at this point as A07, which ECO describes as Reti: King's Indian.  So learning more about the Reti should only help me from this point.  

    I suppose I could ask another question, just in case; "Would learning the English help my KIA?"  Probably not, for the similar reason that it doesn't help the Reti, but I was wrong on my initial guess of English helping the Reti, so maybe I'm wrong on my guess now of English not helping the KIA :).

    The broader question for me really is, "After learning the KIA for white, and KID and Pirc for black, what opening might I learn next to broaden my Repertoire for white?"  As I said, I'm thinking Reti, and was thinking maybe I should learn the english along with it.  Sounds like not.


  • 6 years ago · Quote · #7

    Marshal_Dillon

    To look at the games of Richard Reti, it is not hard to see that he uses the Nf3, b3, Bb2 moves in advance of c4, which qualifies it as an English Opening variant. I am currently studying these moves and won the only two games I have played using the Reti System so far, though I deviated from Reti a bit. One of my games had more of a Queen's Gambit character to it than an English and in the other I skipped c4 altogether, but I'm not a stickler for making moves in order. I deviate from established lines when the position allows it. In those two games, the positions remained relatively closed most of the way through them. 

     

    http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=10626

     

    Here are his games. You can study the ones where he played the English Opening. While some of them did not use the system named after him, many of them did. Of particular interest should be the 1924 game where he defeated J.R. Capablanca, the first loss for Capablanca in 8 years, where Reti uses his system. 


  • 6 years ago · Quote · #8

    AquaMan

    Marshal_Dillon wrote:

    To look at the games of Richard Reti, it is not hard to see that he uses the Nf3, b3, Bb2 moves in advance of c4, which qualifies it as an English Opening variant.


    Thanks, Marshal.  I enjoyed looking into the games.

    Along this line, I think, when I search for games with the position resulting from white playing a slow KIA, double fianchetto, straight out of the book "Starting Out: Kings Indian Attack," Emms: 1. Nf3 2. g3 3. Bg2 4. O-O 5. d3 6.Nbd2 7.b3, 8. Bb2  

    Chessbase finds about 400 games in Big DB 2008

    Approx. 150 as A12 English Opening: 1...c6 with b3 by white

    Approx. 250 as A07 Reti Opening: New York and Capablanca Systems.

    I get the A07 ECO on a lot of my KIA games, which makes sense as I start with 1.Nf3 and play e4, or possibly c4, later.

    Interesting that game search comes up with games labeled as English, when c4 hasn't yet been played for white in the first 8 moves.  I guess this is what matthiasmall was talking about in post #2 also.  I didn't realize it could be considered English with no c4 after 8 moves.
  • 6 years ago · Quote · #9

    AquaMan

    Looking more closely at the table of contents in "Starting Out: English," McDonald, I see now: chapter 8 Reti Lines. 

    So I see now what some of you are saying.  In cases where the English will lead to a Reti-like position, of course it would help to know the Reti. :).


  • 6 years ago · Quote · #10

    ericmittens

    You got it. Also learning the catalan comes in handy.
  • 3 years ago · Quote · #11

    MiraculousOne

    AquaMan wrote:
    Marshal_Dillon wrote:

    To look at the games of Richard Reti, it is not hard to see that he uses the Nf3, b3, Bb2 moves in advance of c4, which qualifies it as an English Opening variant.


    Thanks, Marshal. I enjoyed looking into the games.

    Along this line, I think, when I search for games with the position resulting from white playing a slow KIA, double fianchetto, straight out of the book "Starting Out: Kings Indian Attack," Emms: 1. Nf3 2. g3 3. Bg2 4. O-O 5. d3 6.Nbd2 7.b3, 8. Bb2

    Chessbase finds about 400 games in Big DB 2008

    Approx. 150 as A12 English Opening: 1...c6 with b3 by white

    Approx. 250 as A07 Reti Opening: New York and Capablanca Systems.

    I get the A07 ECO on a lot of my KIA games, which makes sense as I start with 1.Nf3 and play e4, or possibly c4, later.

    Interesting that game search comes up with games labeled as English, when c4 hasn't yet been played for white in the first 8 moves. I guess this is what matthiasmall was talking about in post #2 also. I didn't realize it could be considered English with no c4 after 8 moves.

     

    How are you...I am at a stage where you were in 2008. I read your post about this move order1. Nf3 2. g3 3. Bg2 4. O-O 5. d3 6.Nbd2 7.b3, 8. Bb2
    You may have long gone on to "bigger and better" openings. I am curious to know what directions you have taken from this. It's actually a double fianchetto when compared to the KIA in which there's a single fianchetto. Do you find the double more successful then the single? It's also possible to open with b3 with a Nimzo-Larsen attack (A01) and reach the above sequence. I really don't care much for the English or Reti openings. I prefer the pure meat and bones of the KIA which has given me more successful games. I turned to it when I started losing a lot of QGD games and had more wins. I am using chessbase 11 and do see the A07: Reti opening New York Capablanca Systems pop up quite a bit. According to the literature, the KIA was very popular in the 50's by players such as Spassky, Fischer, and Bazca. I am left to wonder why they gave it up in favor of other openings. But of course I'm only a beginner. Let me know your thoughts.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #12

    Dutchday

    I think it's already been said, but the Reti and the English become very similar, as long as black does not play the immediate d5. (1.c4 d5 2.cxd does not make much sense.) On the other hand, 1.Nf3 prevents e5, usually forcing black to play a different line. Depending on your first move, you can either avoid the direct 1.c4 e5 lines or the direct 1.Nf3 d5 lines. The 1.c4 e5 lines are very different to play and they're not very intuitive. As far as transpositions go: Sometimes white can press on d4, exchange it, and play e4, entering the Maroczy Bind. So the English is actually more likely to expose you to some (reversed) Sicilians. I think these openings are very positional, since black will usually play it solidly with a tempo down. As black, I've faced these openings many times and I much prefer it if white plays 1.c4. It leaves me with all the choices. I'd say it really depends what black has up his sleeve and what you are aiming for.

  • 13 days ago · Quote · #13

    TasmanianTiger

    I'm an avid English Player, and know very little Reti theory, discounting basic theory. Yet I find that very often (especially when black does not reply with e5) I get Reti positions, especially when facing 1...e6 or 1...c6. I am actually not sure whether or not to study the Reti (I do not like d4 openings, so if I played the Reti I'd play a "pure" Reti just like I play a "pure" English-that is, I avoid on a matter of principle any d4 transpositions. So I think definetely that it is worth it to play the English, but I am not sure of the converse.


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