All good points, I guess I'm just used to the accelerated fiancetto lines as I've been playing them the whole time. In Karpov's How to Play the English Opening he gives examples of a lot of the lines you described and I always preferred the positions I reached via the 2.g3 move order...but thats probably just because I am used to them.

 

Speaking of the lines in the english where white plays an early e3, another book to consider is "play the english" by craig pritchett which advocates an approach based on getting d4 in.

http://www.amazon.com/Play-English-opening-repertoire-Everyman/dp/1857445457/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

I use to play the english because I also played the hyper-accelerated dragon as black that reaches similar positions as the accelerated fianchetto in the english but got bored with reaching the same positions over and over again. 

I went back to e4 and pirc. But now I am seeing more pawnstorms with the pirc when I play fast games so I will be going back to the sicilian in live games.

Aquaman, I haven't played against the KIA enough to really have an opinion about it.

pvmike wrote: Aquaman, I haven't played against the KIA enough to really have an opinion about it.

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what's KIA ; killed in action ?

lol - King's Indian Attack, a chess opening.

The King's Indian Attack is a system opening (=an opening where White basically uses the same setup against all of Black's answers) characterized by White's 1.Nf3, 2.g3, 3.Bg2, followed by 0-0, d3, Nbd2 and e4 in most cases. As hypermodern theory develops, this setup is distinguished from the typical Réti system which also starts with 1.Nf3 but is characterized by the thrust c2-c4, especially in response to Black's 1...d5, but also lines like 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 (or 2.g3) 2...g6 3.b4 or 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 b5 belong to "official" Réti territory.

A few thoughts:

1. You cannot play the pure Réti alone against all of Black's setups. A typical example arises after 1.Nf3 c5, when you can of course follow the setup plan of the KIA which will likely lead to a variation resembling the Closed Sicilian. If you don't fancy the KIA, the other most logical Réti move 2.c4 gets you straight into the Symmetrical English.
2. Neither can you play an English-only repertoire: If Black aims for a quick d7-d5 and a transposition to the Queen's Gambit with 1.c4 e6 (or 1...c6), White has a choice to either oblige by playing an early d2-d4 which will transpose to a Queen's Gambit or a Catalan, or try to withhold d2-d4, when we arrive at a Réti via the move order 1.c4 e6 2.Nf3 (after 2.Nc3 d5 the treat of d5-d4 virtually forces 3.d4) 2...d5 3.g3 (or 3.b3). The most famous encounter where a similar transposition took place is probably the Kasparov-Karpov game which decided the 1987 world championship match in Seville.
3. While the move order 1.Nf3 prevents the immediate 1...e5, there are still some variations of the 1.c4 e5 English which can be reached, some of the easier transpositions going 1.Nf3 d6 2.c4 e5 or 1.Nf3 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.g3 e5. Obviously White can prevent these transpositions by playing d2-d4 himself (this actually happens often in master play), but then again we don't reach a typical Réti position but a King's Indian or a Pirc/Modern Defence.
4. None of the aforementioned Hypermodern openings Réti, KIA or English lead to a permanent closure of the centre, as it happens for example in the classical King's Indian defence, where pawn chains effectively prevent any contact of the opposing forces in the centre, thus forcing the play to the wings. Rather the centre often is in a state of mutual control, when often play is carried to the wings as well. This however is rarely a permanent state, and so you cannot just "ignore" the centre, as usually the player executing an unexpectated central thrust will obtain the advantage, or, in case that thrust lacks justification, you still have to find the refutation.

As a conclusion we can say that you need to backup your Réti repertoire with either the KIA, some lines of the English, and/or some queen's pawn openings, which is all the more recommendable as transpositional possibilities are another sharp weapon in the arsenal of the hypermodern Réti player.

The KIA is traeted in the very recommendable book of Angus Dunniongton "The  Ultimate King's Indian Attack", which apart from the typical King's attacks shows some sophisticated positional ways to use this opening.

Other transpositions are something you should probably work out for yourself, but some guidelines can be found in Donaldson's and Hansen's new repaertoire book on 1.Nf3 or in the older but very recommendable book of Alexander Khalifman: "Opening Repertoire According to Kramnik: 1.Nf3", which consists of four volumes.

I hope this is of some help,

Cheers, Torkil 

wagrro --> "what's KIA ; killed in action ?"

 Depends on the outcome of the game.

0-1: killed in action
1-0: killer in action
1/2-1/2: missing in action

Torkil, yes, very helpful.  The transpositional information is interesting.

"The King's Indian Attack is a system opening (=an opening where White basically uses the same setup against all of Black's answers) characterized by White's 1.Nf3, 2.g3, 3.Bg2, followed by 0-0, d3, Nbd2 and e4 in most cases.  As hypermodern theory develops, this setup is distinguished from the typical Réti system which also starts with 1.Nf3 but is characterized by the thrust c2-c4, especially in response to Black's 1...d5"

Do you think that the Reti is a better response than the KIA  to 1. Nf3 d5 ?  In other words, 1. Nf3 d5, 2. c4 rather than 1. Nf3 d5, 2. g3 and so on to e4 or c4. 

The book, "A Strategic Opening Repertoire," Donaldson & Hansen, looks very interesting.   Based on 1. Nf3, 2. c4, 3. g3.  Is the repertoire based on the Reti or English or both?  I can only read the reveiws; can't look inside the book, and don't know if that line can transpose to Enlish.

I see there is now a 1-volume book, "Opening for white according to Kramnik: 1.Nf3," Khalifman, 2006.  The 4-volume series looks like it may be too specialized for me for now.  Each volume specialized to play against a few black defenses. 

I searched for games on Kramnik, 1.Nf3, and got 359 games.  A lot of games going 1.Nf3, 2. c4, 3. Nc3 (A17, etc., English) or 1.Nf3, 2.d4, 3. c4 (Queen's gambit).  Kramnik scores 47% 1-0 ,  7% 0-1, 46% 1/2-1/2 !  Interestingly, he scores exactly the same for his 993 games across all his openings as white.  I wouldn't have known to look at Kramnik's games for 1.Nf3 ideas.  That alone is a great lead.  Thanks!

For the Reti I purchased:

The Dynamic Reti, Davies.  I'm hoping the Davies book will suffice for awhile.

Hypermodern Opening Repertoire For White, Schiller.  I've had the Shiller book checked out of the public library for awhile.  I figure since I'm familiar with it I might as well have it in my library.  It's not a book with lots of lines nor move-by-move explanations.  Rather it gives some key points and a  couple games for many black defenses.

Should I be considering other books on the Reti?

I'll probably look at the Queen's pawn openings in Yasser Seirawan's "Winning Chess Openings," which I already have.  I can only afford so much time on full texts on openings, and the Reti and English will keep me busy for a while.

I feel like I'm learning a lot here.  Thrilled to know that the Reti, English, and KIA will tie together.

Thanks so much, everyone!

Paul

Personally I prefer the pure Réti with 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4, but that's just a matter of taste. The KIA is just as playable, but very different in character, and therefore these two are considered different openings by many players, although the starting move is the same.

Earlier, a question occurred as to why positional players play the English less often than 1.d4-openings. This may partly be due to the fact that the English is a relatively young opening and therefore possibly is not trusted enough by masters to be made a single opening choice. But more importantly, transpositional tricks are not only a way to confuse the opponent, but may often represent the objectively best continuation. From a certain level upwards, players are aware of this, and even if they started the game with 1.Nf3 or 1.c4 they will follow up with d4, transposing to some Queen's Gambit or Indian Defence just because the resulting position is considered favourable for them, or if stubbornly rejecting d4 will allow Black to reach equality all too easily. All these games will appear in the statistics as non-English games even if they were opened with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3.

Books:

Nigel Davies' book on the Réti will certainly carry you a long way, even if some of his recommendations are not very typical. That's something I like about this book: Davies doesn't suggest "system play", e.g. very similar setups against all of Black's options. Especially against some rarer but important defences he suggests original treatments which address the specific requirements of the resulting positions.

I don't have Donaldson/Hansen's book, but I seem to remember having read something about the repertoire suggestions somewhere: They include d2-d4 in some variations, so it's not a "pure" Réti approach, which could make the book very interesting in my eyes. 

Masters:

For studying English games, the Classics of Mikhail Botvinnik are very instructive. The most famous top class player who employs 1.c4 quite regularly is Victor Korchnoi. We already mentioned Vladimir Kramnik. Apart from Nf3 he often plays 1.e4 or 1.d4 as well, which makes him a rather universal player.  A very sharply honed repertoire assembled around 1.Nf3 can be observed in the games of the young Chinese talent Bu Xiangzhi. His original treatment of positions formerly thought of as boring often turns that assessment completely around!

Cheers,

Torkil 

good to hear that we have appreciable no of english opening players why dont we prepare a tournament ? i can see that benoni lovers made 2 tournaments in v short period......this is the best way to deepen our knowledge of this opening

There's an english opening tourney already running...but I'd be happy to join another

My friend PerfectGent has organized a teaching tournament for the English opening. The games are unrated so the games can be discussed while in progress. Right now there are still three games to be played out, and I'm sure that after this he will organize another similar event. If interested, I suggest you - or other interested persons, for that matter - contact him about this. Feel free to have a look at the tournament under English Opening teaching games as well!

Sounds good.  I've never played in a tournament.  My books are due to arrive on July 16, a little later than I thought.  If it takes 3 or 4 weeks to start the next tourney, that would be perfect, for me anyway. 

I liked the english but gave it up in favor of e4.

 

McDonalds book is OK but should by no means be the book that you base all of you knowledge on this opening from . Some Starting out books are great . Sadly that one is rather hit and miss . It offers no statistics and offers more lines and transpostions then the the book has space for 

I was talking with some higher rated player at my chess club, and almost everyone that plays 1.e4 as white hates playing against the reti when they're black. I found that kind of interesting I'm sure it's not true for everyone, but may help you decide who you should play the English against and who you should play the reti against.