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Fishing Pole in the Italian Game!


  • 15 months ago · Quote · #1

    edny26

    I found this sweet game in the Italian Game opening where black unleash the fishing pole bait.  :)  The fishing pole is very common in the Ruy Lopez, but it can also be arrive in many other opening.  You just have to be able to spot it.

     

     

    White takes the bait and Black fish out the King for a nice checkmate!!!!  :)

     

    Questions:

    1)  Does anybody else have any other explains of the fishing pole in the Italian Game that they can share?

    2)  What's blacks best defense against the fishing pole?

    3)  Can the fishing pole work if white castles queen side?

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #2

    DrSpudnik

    uh...check out your diagram and get back to us. Embarassed

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #3

    edny26

    Sorry about that I am new to this, however I just fixed it.  Embarassed

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #4

    DrSpudnik

    Oh yes. That's a deadly one. I have seen it in the Ruy. Be warned...this is out there lurking. Surprised

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #5

    draconlord

    Your best defense against the fishing pole? Just don't take the bait:D

     

    Generally, pushing the h pawn two steps instead of one is a small inaccuracy, so declinging the fishing poll gives the would-be-trapped player a small advantage.

    That said, I play the fishing pole when I have the chance to too. :P

    We're both newbies, after all...

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #6

    uhohspaghettio

    This is VERY common in blitz.

    White could have taken the Knight to begin with. It was the Nd2 and subsequent d6 that made it a fatal move.

    It's that c4/c5 Bishop that is the absolute killer, so it's seen VERY often in the Italian game.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #7

    edny26

    Hey Venci, here's the line I would play if it was me and you closed the d8-h4 diagonal:

     

     

    Here's probably a better way to neurualize the fishing pole in the Italian Game:
  • 15 months ago · Quote · #8

    uhohspaghettio

    edny26 wrote:

    Hey Venci, here's the line I would play if it was me and you closed the d8-h4 diagonal:


    Are you retarded or something? Why the hell would White block up the diagonal only to then proceed to give Black back the diagonal again? Hurrr durrrr... let's make White make the worst moves possible so I show how I mate him.

    I'm not prepared to commit 100% to White being better to take the Knight, but it definitely is a reasonable try for him to take it and he isn't about to get mated any time soon. It could end up about equal, like The Fried Liver, especially if White has to sacrifice a piece to stay alive, but it definitely looks good for White in normal time controls.

    The reason it's so popular in blitz is because in blitz people miss stupid attacks like the one you just showed when in a short time limit. One of White's defence mechanisms/good ideas here is to play g3, Kg2 and Rh1, White is really trying to hang onto his piece but he can sacrifice a piece/pawns back if he gets into trouble. As I said already, this is extremely common in the Italian game, far more than in the Ruy Lopez, I've seen it a million times. It's also called a "Greek Gift" (or maybe that is something slightly different).

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #9

    edny26

    Haha, nice one...but you can't block the diagonal  forever.  Eventually you will have to return back the piece.  Here's an example of how it may continues after the knight moves:

     

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #10

    uhohspaghettio

    The knight does not have to go to h3 on move 11.

    11. Bxf7+  Ke7. (Kf8, Kd8 is met with Ne6+... Black loses the Queen, Kd7 is met with Qxg4+ and will lose his Queen also - Hint: White has a bishop on c1).

    12. Nd5+ and Black loses his Queen also. So much for your genius solution. Even if Black manages to get White's Queen, he won't be able to mate like that any longer and is at least a piece and pawn down (two pieces and a pawn in fact because White can capture the bishop back after he takes the White Queen and that Knight takes the Black one).

    That's just move 11, even at move 13 it's still not too late for White to stop throwing the game away as long as he plays g3. Of course he doesn't come out on top with material this way, but he definitely has good chances and there are no obvious ways for Black to break through. 

    Maybe the Knight sacrifice is playable for Black if you don't move the Queen to h6 but the point is that it's not just "obvious" that White can't take the Knight. These situations can be very complex, but if you can't see a way for Black to get a firm advantage, you shouldn't offer the Knight like that.

    Honestly, you're talking about "more ways than one to skin a cat" as if I had never even considered that the Queen could go that way. I've seen all of this a million times before.

    Sorry if I sounded blunt earlier, but this type of sacrifice can't just be said at a glance whether it's right or not (usually it's not unless you can spot a clear advantage). They're very complicated situations and you have to weigh up a lot of factors, they're not a special "trick" where it's obvious who's going to win.

    Try doing something similar against a good player and unless the sacrifice really is worth it, watch him whip your knight off straightaway, quickly nullify the attack and laugh you off the board.

  • 15 months ago · Quote · #11

    edny26


    Okay, I agree the game is unclear as far as who is better.  Smile Here's how I think the line will continue in the situation you presented...by the way, g3 is too slow, black never gives white a chance to hide like a wuss:
    Yes, trying this similar line against a strong player is suicidal...especially in a long time standard game.  However, call me crazy but I would still go into this line if you give me a chance.  I rather lose in a fun tactical game than a boring positional chess game.
    Maybe that's why I always play the King's Gambit as White.  Tongue out
  • 15 months ago · Quote · #12

    uhohspaghettio

    "16. Qf3 hxg2 17. Qxg2 Bh3"

    That wins the exchange for Black though.

    (I don't know why the above is being underlined, I tried to de-underline it).

    16. g3 won't lose any piece and Black's king is in no-man's land. 17. b4+ sacrificing the pawn to open up that rank, playing every move to open up those ranks and Black is destroyed. White also wants to take the Knight out of the way of his Bishop so it has a good square to go to if attacked. Black can try to play h2 and he has the right bishop for that diagonal (light-squared), but his attack is still weak compared to White's. Maybe someone will come along with Houdini/Rybka and show differently but I know which side I'd like to be on. 

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #13

    BrianWall

    Hi Guys

     

    Roommate Life Master Jack Young showed me the Fishing Pole 11 years ago.

     

    You can learn more at

    Youtube

    Fishing Pole Chess

    or

    How To Play Chess Like An Animal

    by Anthea Carson and Lynn Trochim

     

    or Formation Attacks by Joel Johnson

     

    or thousands of annotated Fishing Poles at

    BrianWallChess@Yahoogroups.com

    by the way, Jack Young also plays the Fishing Pole as White like Greco did 400 years ago - Jack calls this the Tombraider -

    1 e4 e5  2 Nf3  Nc6 3 Bc4  Bc5  4  Nc3  Nf6  5 Ng5  0-0  6 d3  h6  7 h4

     

    Fishing

     

    You

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #14

    kamus

    This line doesn't work unfortunately: after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. O-O Ng4? White plays 6. Bxf7+ Kxf7 7. Ng5+ K-moves followed by Qxg4 and black is down a pawn in a near-lost position. Generally, the fishing pole doesn't work if  White's  light sqared bishop has a clear shot at f7.

  • 13 months ago · Quote · #15

    echecs06

    Agree, works well in blitz when black is oblivious of white's attack. More difficult to execute in OTB or CC.


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