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How deep does the kings indian attack go


  • 5 years ago · Quote · #1

    sgt_pepper

    I've been playing chess for a few months, studying it, practicing frequently. I recent saw the kings indian attack, and I instantly fell in love with how each peice can not only defend, but replace other peices, and flow into attacks. Just analyzing the fortress brings thoughts of bunnies and sugar cookies.

    Is there anything I should be weary of as a beginner about to delve into this opening. How deep to I need to understand this opening to use it effectivly. It seems pretty straightforward, but I'd like to know some ideas black might try to employ, and some squares they might try to capitalize on, maybe a few good games to study.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #2

    mcfischer

    sgt_pepper wrote:

    I've been playing chess for a few months, studying it, practicing frequently. I recent saw the kings indian attack, and I instantly fell in love with how each peice can not only defend, but replace other peices, and flow into attacks. Just analyzing the fortress brings thoughts of bunnies and sugar cookies.

    Is there anything I should be weary of as a beginner about to delve into this opening. How deep to I need to understand this opening to use it effectivly. It seems pretty straightforward, but I'd like to know some ideas black might try to employ, and some squares they might try to capitalize on, maybe a few good games to study.


    the only problem I can see is its too narrow (being a system) to improve as much as with starting out by working on double king pawn openings.

    but with that said, its a solid and easy setup. maybe buy one book on it and Id think thats enough to get you going. I saw an old one on ebay for only a few bucks. that should give you the main ideas

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #3

    sgt_pepper

    I've been thinking of using this as my primary response to whites d4. Probably the larsen variation.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #4

    mcfischer

    oh yeah, the KID has a much larger theoretical buildup than the KIA. you might need a lot longer for the KID

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #5

    Eebster

    The KIA is actually surprisingly different from the KID, because of white's extra tempo. The pawn structure often differs dramatically.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #6

    jonn0

    you're in love with the KIA, a few things:

    please provide proof, etc one of your KIA wins or some game where black got smashed, because KIA theoretically doesnt provide an advantage and im not convinced by it

    im guessing the KIA youre talking about is against the french, where black plays his pawns to e6, d5, c5, b5, a5, etc while white gets the e5 push with attacking chances. Black also has other set ups like pawns on c5, d6, e5 (botvinnik) and pawns on e6, d5, bishop on f5, with both of these you may not get the e5 push or attack on the kingside.  Basically you may not like your game as much if you dont get e4-e5 in...

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #7

    ogerboy

    The KIA is a very flexible opening, offering many different types of positions. I use it against the Sicilian, French as well as the Caro Kann because... well... I simply couldn't be bothered to learn anything else.There is very little theory on the KIA compared to main line French, or Open Sicilian.

    As for the fact that the KIA does not offer white any theoretical advantage, you are right, it doesn't, but at the club level, I seriously doubt anyone will know their path to equality as black.

    Starting out: King's Indian Attack is a great book if you want to learn how to play the KIA.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #8

    shuttlechess92

    I am an avid KIA player.

     

    check out my game (in response to jonn0's request)

    http://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-showcase/my-immortal---kings-indian-attack

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #9

    Eebster

    tonydal wrote:
    jonn0 wrote:

    1. please provide proof, etc one of your KIA wins or some game where black got smashed, because KIA theoretically doesnt provide an advantage and im not convinced by it

    ?


    Clearly there are no games where the KIA wins. It has never been used successfully. Ever.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #10

    DrizztD

    Eebster wrote:
    tonydal wrote:
    jonn0 wrote:

    1. please provide proof, etc one of your KIA wins or some game where black got smashed, because KIA theoretically doesnt provide an advantage and im not convinced by it

    ?


    Clearly there are no games where the KIA wins. It has never been used successfully. Ever.


    Hahahahahahahha!!!

     

    That's great. But to respond to the topic, I think that one of the beauties of the KIA is that it really doesn't have very much theory. You just have to figure out what move order you feel comfortable with as white, and you should be familiar to blacks various responses. For example, the french and sicilian are very similar against the KIA, so you would just need to familiarize yourself with the position and play over some high level games to become comfortable with the strategies that come from the position. Then you should go and practice, and within no time, you will be comfortable in the KIA.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #11

    sgt_pepper

    I'm concerned about how passive it is for white. It kind of takes away the advantage of moving first. What do you think. There are so many great openings for white, I'm big on ruy lopez. I think I want to use the kings indian as my response to d4. It's great because it's unique but simple to remember.

     

    How many players know the appropriate response to the kings indian, and how deep? Just how popular is it?

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #12

    DrizztD

    sgt_pepper wrote:

    I'm concerned about how passive it is for white. It kind of takes away the advantage of moving first. What do you think. There are so many great openings for white, I'm big on ruy lopez. I think I want to use the kings indian as my response to d4. It's great because it's unique but simple to remember.

     

    How many players know the appropriate response to the kings indian, and how deep? Just how popular is it?


    Passive? The King's Indian isn't really passive, but some would say it isn't the best opening for white. The reason I like playing the KIA is because it isn't very theory-oriented (unlike the Ruy Lopez) and playing common-sense moves will get you out of the opening alive and with winning chances. The game is often very double-edged and fun though, and you can get a wicked attack on the king. But to respond, I don't think it takes away white's advantage.

    I think that the king's indian defense is an excellent response to d4. It is strong and fighting, and it would be profitable to take a little look into the theory.

    The correct response? I don't think there is a correct response. The last link I provide is one way you could see as a response, but it by no means breaks the attack. The second link shows a common setup and strategy with the black pieces in the example game. Your opponent may respond many ways, but the beauty of the KIA is that it won't to greatly matter how.

    When you say you like the ruy lopez, that is actually really good, and you can use both. You can start the game with e4, and if they respond e5, go into the ruy (the KIA isn't so great in double king's pawn games), or, if they give you the Sicilian or something, you can go into the KIA.

    Here's the URl to a video I think may help you learn it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4BucKIccB4

    This is a URL for a nice video for how to take on the French and Sicilian systems.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGwUQ2wB1c

    This is an example of a system that has been created to counteract the KIA, though it has never been played against me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqZNhiu8eVs

    I hope this helps!

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #13

    Estragon

    The true KIA is played against French or Caro-Kann formations.  (Against the Sicilian it becomes the Closed, and against 1...e5 it makes no sense).  Black can equalize with accurate play, but it will not be his preferred type of position.

    It's not a magic bullet by any stretch of imagination, but as a simple set-up which avoids most theory, it works well enough.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #14

    Eebster

    Estragon wrote:

    The true KIA is played against French or Caro-Kann formations.  (Against the Sicilian it becomes the Closed, and against 1...e5 it makes no sense).  Black can equalize with accurate play, but it will not be his preferred type of position.

    It's not a magic bullet by any stretch of imagination, but as a simple set-up which avoids most theory, it works well enough.


    The KIA does not always begin 1. e4, so what you said is not at all true.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #15

    RabbitCold

    Estragon wrote:

    The true KIA is played against French or Caro-Kann formations.  (Against the Sicilian it becomes the Closed, and against 1...e5 it makes no sense).  Black can equalize with accurate play, but it will not be his preferred type of position.

    It's not a magic bullet by any stretch of imagination, but as a simple set-up which avoids most theory, it works well enough.


    If you dont want to see e5, 1.Nf3 first.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #16

    Estragon

    If White plays 1 Nf3, Black can respond with ... d5 and the opening structure is a Reti, not a KIA, or also 1 ... c5 inviting a Closed Sicilian (since White has to play e4 at some point if he wants the KIA).  Also 1 ...Nf6  2 g3 b5!?, Spassky's Defense, leads to quite different positions than the KIA.

    It is certainly possible to play the moves Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0, d3, and e4 in some order or another against many Black responses, but most of these positions are NOT the "KIA" at all - and few of them, including the KIA proper lines, offer any tangible advantage to White. 

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #17

    Eebster

    Estragon wrote:

    If White plays 1 Nf3, Black can respond with ... d5 and the opening structure is a Reti, not a KIA, or also 1 ... c5 inviting a Closed Sicilian (since White has to play e4 at some point if he wants the KIA).  Also 1 ...Nf6  2 g3 b5!?, Spassky's Defense, leads to quite different positions than the KIA.

    It is certainly possible to play the moves Nf3, g3, Bg2, 0-0, d3, and e4 in some order or another against many Black responses, but most of these positions are NOT the "KIA" at all - and few of them, including the KIA proper lines, offer any tangible advantage to White. 


    Define the "Kings Indian Attack" if it does not include certain black responses. To my understanding, the KIA is a white position, not an opening.

    And while it is true that white does not usually have immediately obvious benefits out of the KIA, in the case of most black responses, white has many opportunities to develop a strong kingside in the middlegame and support a pawn push--if not e5, then perhaps d4-d5 or similar to gain control of the center. Not all openings give white an immediately realizable advantage--just look at the King's Gambit.

    And to say that white does not have an advantage, does not mean that black does. Obviously one would not expect white to be guaranteed an advantage in any opnening system, or chess would not be a fair game.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #18

    AnthonyCG

    White can only "force" a KIA with moves like 1.e4 or 1.d3.

    After 1.Nf3 or 1.g3, Black can force White to play queens pawn games so it won't always work. Without e2-e4, there is no KIA.

    It's nice though because you can play it against anything and get a good position. It avoids theory and that's pretty effective these days...

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #19

    sgt_pepper

    DrizztD wrote:
    Passive? The King's Indian isn't really passive, but some would say it isn't the best opening for white. The reason I like playing the KIA is because it isn't very theory-oriented (unlike the Ruy Lopez) and playing common-sense moves will get you out of the opening alive and with winning chances. The game is often very double-edged and fun though, and you can get a wicked attack on the king. But to respond, I don't think it takes away white's advantage.

    I think that the king's indian defense is an excellent response to d4. It is strong and fighting, and it would be profitable to take a little look into the theory.

    The correct response? I don't think there is a correct response. The last link I provide is one way you could see as a response, but it by no means breaks the attack. The second link shows a common setup and strategy with the black pieces in the example game. Your opponent may respond many ways, but the beauty of the KIA is that it won't to greatly matter how.

    When you say you like the ruy lopez, that is actually really good, and you can use both. You can start the game with e4, and if they respond e5, go into the ruy (the KIA isn't so great in double king's pawn games), or, if they give you the Sicilian or something, you can go into the KIA.

    Here's the URl to a video I think may help you learn it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4BucKIccB4

    This is a URL for a nice video for how to take on the French and Sicilian systems.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pGwUQ2wB1c

    This is an example of a system that has been created to counteract the KIA, though it has never been played against me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqZNhiu8eVs

    I hope this helps!


    that was one of the most helpful comments I've received. I feel confident on being 7 or 8 moves into a game on book alone, and end up with a middle game that is at the least equal. Now I just need to work on my sicilian defence for white's e4.

    My only question is what can black do to deny the kings indian attack or the kings indian defence. None of those video's covered how my opponnets could stop me from going into it. Is there a way?

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #20

    AnthonyCG

    After 1.e4 Black has 1...d5, 1...Nf6 and 1...f5 but that's it.


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