Is Black losing here?

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9th June 2009, 02:33pm
#1
by Elubas
Buffalo United States
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 2581

This position came out of the winawer french defense and the computer says white is up about 1.5 here but this line is almost never played for white by anyone good.

9th June 2009, 02:38pm
#2
by RyanMK
Iowa United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 2277

After castling, it looks like white is up by half a pawn (obviously based on position as well as material).

9th June 2009, 02:49pm
#3
by Elubas
Buffalo United States
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 2581

Why isn't this variation ever played then?

9th June 2009, 02:51pm
#4
by benedictus
Buenos Aires Argentina
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 777

White's Advantages: Up a pawn. More space for piece movement. Black's queen is in a tight position.

Black's Advantages: White has tripled pawns. White's queen is in a tight position. More center pawns.

I'd say overall white has a small advantage.

EDIT: I don't know much about the French, but my guess as to why it's not used often is that maybe it's a hard position to reach.

10th June 2009, 02:24pm
#5
by Elubas
Buffalo United States
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 2581

No in this variation white plays an alternative move and almost every time he takes when black plays ...f5 but not here. I don't want to trust the computer saying it's that bad though.

12th June 2009, 02:49am
#6
by josef5555
Falköping Sweden
Member Since: Oct 2008
Member Points: 139

How is the position reached? White doesn't usally take on c5 in the french winawer.

12th June 2009, 04:57am
#7
by Slowhandslow
London United Kingdom
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 9

I think if memory serves me correctly Nigel Short playing as white in the winawer has played a positional version where he exchanges on c5.

 

I prefer whites position in the diagram.

12th June 2009, 05:53am
#8
by chesteroz
Melbourne Australia
Member Since: Apr 2009
Member Points: 88

Do f4 and e5 look like good squares for black?

12th June 2009, 12:42pm
#9
by Elubas
Buffalo United States
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 2581
josef5555 wrote:

How is the position reached? White doesn't usally take on c5 in the french winawer.


Because dxc5 was forced since black was threatening ...c4 followed by ...Qxc2 before.

12th June 2009, 12:49pm
#10
by linus9113
New York United States
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 1421

hmm. black does

12th June 2009, 03:39pm
#11
by Alphastar18
Groningen Netherlands
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 690

The computer is wrong. Contrary to what benedictus says, the black queen is excellently placed. White has problems guarding the e5-pawn. In the position you give, black is threatening to win the e5-pawn with ..Qg4. It follows that with black to move, he gains the advantage with 1. ..Qg4. White to move should prevent this with 1. h3, I think. 1. O-O is also possible so as to answer Qg4 with 2. R(f)e1, but this allows black to trade queens and I'm not sure that's what white wants. I'm not sure he wants to castle kingside in the first place; a common plan in these kind of positions is the h-pawn's advance, but again black will play Qg4 and thwart white's plans.

So in summary, white has some problems to solve (defense of e5-pawn, where to put the king). Black has to see how he is going to use his queen's excellent position (move it to the kingside or pick up the c5-pawn with Qa5 and then try for play on the c-file?). Black to move has the advantage, white to move is equal.

12th June 2009, 03:59pm
#12
by moopster
Evanston, IL United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 152

but Alphastar18, so what if white loses one of his pawns?  Hes already up a pawn anyways, and that pawn is a lost cause.  One problem with blacks position is that the e pawn is either very weak, or black has a bad bishop, his choice.  It seems to me that an eventual Ng5 for white leads to major advantages if Black chooses to free his bishop.

12th June 2009, 04:18pm
#13
by Alphastar18
Groningen Netherlands
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 690

yes, white can afford to lose one of his pawns, or maybe even two, but the e5-pawn is a thorn in black's side. If the e5-pawn is lost, black can shove his own centre down white's throat. Later on the tripled pawn on the c-file will be a nice picnick for black. Ofcourse black has a bad bishop, but in what way is white's own light-squared bishop better? It is blocked just as much by black's pawns.

12th June 2009, 05:07pm
#14
by Elubas
Buffalo United States
Member Since: Aug 2008
Member Points: 2581

I could imagine the computer miss evaluating that position since it is a complex strategic situation. Maybe Fritz just sees that the white pawn can be held and the two bishops to combine to give white a big advantage. But since I play the winawer variaiton, I'm glad to hear someone say that the computer is wrong and that black is fine. I personally liked black because of white's weak e and c pawns and good queen position for black but the computer had quite a huge favor for white that it was just scary.

 

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