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Is the Fried Liver good for black?

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Herjevi
X_PLAYER_J_X schreef:
willemverheij1999 wrote:

So with good play 6.Nxf7 is inferrior to 6.d4, but after 6.d4 will follow 6...Be6! 7.O-O! with slightly better play for white. (see the comments of Stefan Buecker)

And this is not about the Traxler, but as pfren said both 5.Bxf7! and maybe 5.d4!? too will be better for white.

The reason 5...Nxd5 is not played is because of 6.d4 which is considered the best move going into the Lolli Attack. White often gets an advantage from this position. The second best move against 5...Nxd5 is the move 6.Nxf7 going into the Fried Liver Attack. Most computer engines read the position as equal-ish for a good portion of the game.

I remember watching 2 engines play against each other and after about 20-25 moves black was up 1 knight vs 2 white pawns. Having only 1 pawn advantage. Obviously if your up 1 minor piece the computer should be reading +3 etc. In this situation white had some dynamic compensation which black has to play very carefully as well as white.

So because of these above reasons most black players decided to do something esle. They didn't want to devote all there time messing around with the above lines. They figured it is not worth all the effort. After all when you think about it these lines don't get played often in middle level and higher level chess. So why spend so much effort trying to memorize and study all of these continuations when you don't see it often.

Which is why they play 5...Na5.

It is a more simple approach.

I strongly believe 5...Na5 is the best move.

Yes, for sure 5...Na5 is the strongest move, but when white only know he has to play (after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5) 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+, and he doesn't know how to continue the attack, black will surely have chances to draw (at least). And secondly, the link in my previous reply (http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1269280757) will show you, there is no clear theoratical win and that white has to know very carefully what he is doing. I will give a sample line.


And after 6.d4 Be6 7.O-O white is just slightly better.

MonkeyH

Why not play the Ulvestad variation? Traxler counter isn't strong because white does not have to accept a bishop sacrifice on f2. If he doesn't then the traxler just fizzles out.

Ulvestad variation:



Herjevi
MonkeyH schreef:

Why not play the Ulvestad variation? 

After 5.exd5 black has the following options

5...Na5 best move and mainline

5...Nd4 Fritz variation

5...b5 Ulvestad variation

5...Nxd5 leading to the Fried Liver Attack or the Lolli Attack, as investigated in the posts above.

X_PLAYER_J_X

After 5...b5

Whites best move is 6.Bf1 and if I rememeber correctly white is said to have slight advantage than.

MonkeyH
 
Also 6..Nd4, 6..h6 and 6..Bg4 has been played.
MonkeyH
Fiveofswords wrote:
MonkeyH wrote:
 
 
Also 6..Nd4, 6..h6 and 6..Bg4 has been played.

the only reason the bishop goes to f1 is so that after qxd5 the queen doesnt threaten g2. but after qxd5 nc3 the queen cant take g2...must go elsewhere...then the bishop happily captures b5.

I see, probably Queen c5 is bad as well then?

Herjevi
Fiveofswords schreef:
MonkeyH wrote:
 
 
Also 6..Nd4, 6..h6 and 6..Bg4 has been played.

to answer the op...just because the fried liver may be sound (yet difficult) this doesnt mean nxd5 is a great move. na5 is also sound...and doesnt need massive justification to prove it...and much more pleasant for black. and ignoring d4 is absurd.

Yes, you're right, 5...Na5 is also and probably even more sound than 5...Nxd5. But after 5...Na5 you also have to know the theory. For example:

6.d3 and now e.g. 6...h6 7.Nf3 e4 8.dxe4!?;
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Bd3;
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Qf3; 
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nh3.
 
And the mainline of course. 

And when you say I'm ignoring 6.d4, you aren't totally right. I mentioned 6...Be6 7. O-O but I wanted to focus on the Fried Liver (okay that didn't work out, we now even have the Traxler and the Ulvestad in here). 

epchessplayer

I think the fried liver is a agressive atack but black might have some good optionsWink

Jion_Wansu
BigKingBud

I don't know much about that exact opening, but I can look at the OP's board and tell you, that's not ANYWEHRE near any kind of opening position I would EVER want to be in(especially on purpose).

X_PLAYER_J_X
willemverheij1999 wrote:

Yes, you're right, 5...Na5 is also and probably even more sound than 5...Nxd5. But after 5...Na5 you also have to know the theory. For example:

6.d3 and now e.g. 6...h6 7.Nf3 e4 8.dxe4!?;
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Bd3;
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Qf3; 
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nh3.
 
And the mainline of course. 

And when you say I'm ignoring 6.d4, you aren't totally right. I mentioned 6...Be6 7. O-O but I wanted to focus on the Fried Liver (okay that didn't work out, we now even have the Traxler and the Ulvestad in here). 

I think some of your opening theory is wrong. The one I have highlighted in red text.

They don't play 9.Nh3

The line goes like the below line. Which is mainline.

The variation you mention below is also very playable
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Qf3

 

The variation with 8.Bd3 has recently became very popular some high level players used it. I believe Nakamura used it a few times so did a few others. It is a newly played move. It wasn't played alot until recently now its been catching on it seems.

6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Bd3

Herjevi
X_PLAYER_J_X schreef:
willemverheij1999 wrote:

Yes, you're right, 5...Na5 is also and probably even more sound than 5...Nxd5. But after 5...Na5 you also have to know the theory. For example:

6.d3 and now e.g. 6...h6 7.Nf3 e4 8.dxe4!?;
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Bd3;
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dc bc 8.Qf3; 
6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nh3.
 
And the mainline of course. 

And when you say I'm ignoring 6.d4, you aren't totally right. I mentioned 6...Be6 7. O-O but I wanted to focus on the Fried Liver (okay that didn't work out, we now even have the Traxler and the Ulvestad in here). 

I think some of your opening theory is wrong. The one I have highlighted in red text.

They don't play 9.Nh3

They do (this line was favoured by Bobby Fischer) and I will give a sample line.

And I covered your mainline too, but I just said: 'And the mainline of course'.

X_PLAYER_J_X

Well what I mean is 9.Nh3 is not the mainline

The continuation I showed is the mainline so they don't play it like that with 9.Nh3.