Is the Torre Attack a weak opening?

I was thinking about introducing this opening in my repertoire, and then I started searching for some more information. Well, the oppinions I've found differ a lot from each other. Some say it's a very respected opening even among GM and a dangerous weapon, whereas some other say it's no problem for black to equalize (I think this latter was a book review at Jeremy Silman's website).

I've just played the Torre very few times, but I've won all of the few games I've played with it in such a crushing way that I started thinking that maybe it's not that easy for black to equalize as I've read. Or at least maybe not at this non-GM level.

What do you think of this opening, and what experience do you have?

Thanks a lot in advance.

There are two aspects to consider when answering this question:

1) It is true, Black can equalize, so for masters, this is not really a great choice, unless you are the kind of player that just wants to have an equal position with little chance of losing and grind out the game to see if you can win it at some point. This makes it a very unattractive opening for masters.

2) Among amateurs, it is likely that the person playing black is not very familiar with this opening and as a result will not know how to go about equalizing. So if you know the system much better than your opponent you have a definite edge, no matter what theory says.

The issue with starting to play the Torre is that as you go up in class, you are going to start seeing that players do know how to equalize and therefore, if you want to play for an advantage with white, you are going to have to learn a whole new system at that point. 

Thanks a lot for your useful answer! I think you're right. As a surprise weapon it may be OK, but as I face stronger oppones I would play it less and less, so I'd better not start with it.

Regards.

I guess it depends on what rating range you are talking about. 1800+ will probably find the common sense moves, but below that, black is likely to go astray.

If you understand and are comfortable with the postions you end up in, then you'll play that opening strong. For practical results the Torre opening will work for you for a long time.

The Torre system possibly isn't great for the overall growth of your game if used to run and hide from opening study. It can be a bit of a crutch.

I wouldn't drop the Torre from your repertoire -- hell you say you've been crushing people -- why change?! ... but don't make it your only opening as White, don't make it your excuse to not ever play some center & space and initiative grabbing 1.e4 or 1.d4 ...2.c4 openings... yes, a truly prepared 1.e4 or 1.d4... 2.c4 repertoire is an huge project -- and there's no avoiding occassionally getting into trouble early, even losing some games right out of the opening ... but you'll also win some games right out of the opening, and you'll develop a taste for the early initiative that you won't get playing Torre only.

*EDIT* LOL. I think this is a fantastic response to your question if only I was talking about the right opening:  I was thinking Colle system, not Torre attack! I don't know a damn thing about the Torre attack :)

Hehehe. No problem. Your reply was very helpful, anyway, since that idea can be applicable to any opening.

Just for your info, the Torre set-up is the same as the Colle, but in the former the dark-squared bishop stays out of the pawn chain. In other words white plays Bg5 before playing d3.

Thanks.

Many strong players included players +1800 me included just play a position. I like endgames.. and often win equal endgames. So I just play. A equal maneuvering position is what I aim for.

No and here's why:

1.The main task of an opening is:

a.Get the pieces out

b.Castle

c.Connect the rooks (by moving the queens somewhere)

Notice how I don't mention a center because controlling the center is just a natural consequence of the principle of maximum activity. 

The Torre Attack accomplishes these opening tasks.

2.There's transposition potential into a Veresov.  A book is named, "A Ferocious Opening Repertoire for White" that teaches the Veresov.  Flexibility has to account for something.  One can even play c4 to enter a mainline that's to their tastes at some point. 

3.Torre defeated Emmanuel Lasker with it.  Then agian Barnes is said to have defeated Morphy with 1...f6? and Owen defeated Morphy with 1...b6?! and Fischer drew against 1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,f6? 3.Nxe5,Qe7 in a simul so that might not be saying much. 

Does anyone have the book THE TORRE ATTACK MOVE BY MOVE?  Can you recommend it?

I own it, play it (at times that is, my repertoire is wide), and recommend the book.

That said, keep in mind that the Torre Attack cannot be an all-encompassing opening.

Against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6, the Torre is fine.  However, after any line with an early d5, like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 or 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6, the move 3.Bg5 is dubious at best.

This is why I recommend you combine the Torre, Colle, and Slow Slav in your repertoire as White.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 and now:

A) 2...g6 - Torre

B) 2...e6 - Torre

C) 2...d5 (or 1...d5 and 2...Nf6), then I recommend 3.e3 and then:

   C1) 3...e6 4.Bd3 followed by 5.c3 or 5.b3 (Colle)

   C2) 3...Bf5 or 3...Bg4, known as the "Anti-Colle", White should play 4.c4, transposing to the Slow Slav.

That's interesting - as thorough as ever. I followed your post on an earlier question you answered on a white repertoire - you corrected the 1...d5 2...Nf6 gap that I was scratching my head over.

No.It's hard for white to get any advantage but that's it.White is not worse in any line.It's a perfectly good opening.

I think that you can keep three d4 openings in your repertoire......the queens gambit against 1.....d5 , the London System against 1....Nf6 and 2....e6 and the Torre against 1...Nf6 and 2.....g6 . But, as people here mentioned, if u see 2....d5, just transpose into queens gambit or maybe continue playing the London System, but definitely not the Torre

That is...as far as I plan to go about it.

Technically you can play the Colle and Torre against everything. With the Colle Against ...g6 systems you simply get positions from the king's indian attack with colors reversed. You just end up with some kind of game with fixed pawns on e4 and e5. With the Torre you can just transpose to the Bg5 lines in the KID or Grunfeld that are just not very popular.

BTW, the "Cunning Chess Opening Repertoire for White" by Graham Burgess uses the Torre (in the version 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5) as one of four systems (so it is a bit more sophisticated than a single system approach). I am just starting to try it out

The Torre attack as the London system works pretty fine when the second player has commit the move e6 first. The attacking chances are increasing because of the availability to play Ne5 or alternatively to push e4-e5.

In the case of the Torre attack the system is much more effective when Black has not play 2...d5. It appears that after 2...d5 3.Bg5 Ne4! Black's counterplay against the dark square bishop consolidates faster when for white it's not easy to complete harmonious development.

That for many theoreticians employ the Torre attack only in the 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 move order.

"... after d4 Nf6 2 Nf3, ... Black can then play 2…d5, when 3 Bg5 is no longer as interesting as after 2…g6 and 2…e6. Nevertheless, as Palliser also points out, there are enough opponents who want to play the Nimzo and King's Indian to make the opening worth the study. ..." - FM Carsten Hansen (reviewing The Torre Attack: Move by Move by Richard Palliser (2012))

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627105428/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen161.pdf

" ... [In A CUNNING CHESS OPENING REPERTOIRE FOR WHITE,] FM Graham Burgess ... bases his system on three pillars: The Queen's Gambit (d4 and c4) versus 1...d5, the Torre (1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5) and Counter Fianchetto (1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3). ..." - IM John Donaldson (2013)

http://www.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Cunning-Chess-Opening-Repertoire-for-White-A-76p3827.htm

It's dangerous if you don't know how to play against it. Karpov has shown that it's just equal for white though, and that black is fine.