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Italian game, Bird's attack

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ruben72d

Does anybody has some experience in this line or even knows it? It seems to me to have some similarities to a philidor's defence.



ruben72d
Fiveofswords wrote:

ive looked at it before. not sure what it has in common with philidor.

After 5...Bb6 / Be7 white will play sooner or later d3 (probably sooner) after which you get a pawn structure common in the philidor.

ruben72d
Fiveofswords wrote:

black may be tempted to play bxf2 then nxe4

and about the piece sac. It does indeed seem intresting on first sight however when looking at some lines this seems a bit too much. White's king is not that much in trouble after Kg1, and black does not seem to get enough development compensation to make a sac work. Then again it could be that I'm completely wrong of course :)
Do you know of any games where the sac was played? I couldn't find one myself...

poucin

I don't like this b4. There is a similarity with Philidor pawn structure but here, Bf1 is on c4, not e2. That makes a big difference because at some point black will play d5 (the usual blow in 1.e4 e5), which is effective here.

Either white will lose tempo playing Bc4 (if e4 enough protected...), either he will take on d5 but then black will be happy with Nxd5, possessing good centre, and good active pieces.

For these reasons, I think, if u want to play b4, is to delay this move, playing classical giuoco pianissimo, with 0-0, Re1, Cbd2, and at some point b4. The point is that black probably would have played d6, so d5 would lose a tempo if u compare with b4 in your position (black will play d7-d5 instead of d7-d6 and d6-d5).

ruben72d
Fiveofswords wrote:

my database has 2 games where it was played. the players werent supergms or anything but not bad. in one black was 200 points lower rated than white and lost quickly. the other was a draw. i feel like the sac is probably quite reasonable.

But probably not something you would want to play unprepared then i guess... Do you know something about the time controls in which the sac was played?

Alltheusernamestaken

I'm trying this right now. I made a threat on the bird's attack when black has wasted a tempo going 3.h6:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/exploiting-4-d4-bfc5-in-the-italian-game-anti-fried-liver-defense

poucin
Alltheusernamestaken a écrit :

I'm trying this right now. I made a threat on the bird's attack when black has wasted a tempo going 3.h6:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/exploiting-4-d4-bfc5-in-the-italian-game-anti-fried-liver-defense

h6 losing a tempo, why playing for b4 instead of d4 which could be crushing?

Alltheusernamestaken

poucin escribió:

Alltheusernamestaken a écrit :

I'm trying this right now. I made a threat on the bird's attack when black has wasted a tempo going 3.h6:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/exploiting-4-d4-bfc5-in-the-italian-game-anti-fried-liver-defense

h6 losing a tempo, why playing for b4 instead of d4 which could be crushing?

Yeah I know h6 is 'losing a tempo'. Btw in the link I showed b4 is the best move in that position

Alltheusernamestaken
pfren wrote:
Alltheusernamestaken έγραψε:

 

poucin escribió:

 

Alltheusernamestaken a écrit :

I'm trying this right now. I made a threat on the bird's attack when black has wasted a tempo going 3.h6:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/exploiting-4-d4-bfc5-in-the-italian-game-anti-fried-liver-defense

h6 losing a tempo, why playing for b4 instead of d4 which could be crushing?

 

Yeah I know h6 is 'losing a tempo'. Btw in the link I showed b4 is the best move in that position

 

Your 4.c3 is a second rate move, compared to 4.d4!

Black's sole idea behind 3...h6?! is to follow up with ...Nf6 without having to deal with Ng5 stuff, so 4.c3 Nf6 is way better than the stupid 4...Bc5.

Actually 3...Nf6 4.d3 h6!? is a well-established line. Currently not terribly popular compared to 4...Bc5 or 4...Be7, but still quite reliable.

Yep the purpose of 3.h6 is to stop Ng5, that's why it's called the anti-fried liver (even though Bc5 stops it too).

As you said following up 3.h6 with 4.Nf6 is the best move but if you go 4.Bc5 the engine's best move is 4.b4 wich leads to complications for black, in fact I have never lost a match where I reached this position.

The 4.d3 h6 line you said it's well established becouse you can play almost anything against the Giuoco Pianissimo.