10031 Players currently online!
Man vs. Machine - good luck!
Turn-based games at any time!
Vote for the best move to win!
Do you have what it takes?
Sharpen your tactical vision!
Get advice and game insights!
Learn from top players & pros!
View millions of master games!
Your virtual chess coach!
Perfect your opening moves!
Test your skills vs. computer!
Find the right private coach!
Can you solve it each day?
Bring it all together!
Beginners, start here!
Make friends & play team games!
News from the world of chess!
Search all Chess.com members!
Find local clubs & events!
Who's the best of your friends?
Read what members are saying!
When your opponent plays the King's Indian Defense, do you go for 3. Nc3 or Nf3? Or another move altogether? What are the positional advantages of each? I personally go 3. Nc3 because I love the four pawn attack... It leads to fun games (for me). But I don't know what's actually positionally better.
This one's pretty easy to answer. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 is far better than 3.Nf3 for most players. 3.Nc3 allows white to choose between the Saemisch with f3, classical lines with Nf3, and the sharp Four Pawn Attack with f4.
The drawbacks of 3.Nc3 are almost non-existent. If white plays 3.Nf3, he only limits himself, not his opponent.
I want to be absolutely clear: I don't believe 3.Nf3 is actually an objective mistake since White can transpose into mainlines fairly easily. But there is almost no good reason to play 3.Nf3 over 3.Nc3.
The only line where 3.Nf3 is preferred over 3.Nc3 is the fianchetto variation. And even there, play almost always transposes. If you really want to play the fianchetto lines, you're probably best off playing 3.g3 first! That's Avrukh's recommendation, based on what he plays against the Grunfeld rather than the KID.
There is one major consideration for playing 3.Nf3 over 3.Nc3: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 allows white to play 5.e4 without allowing an exchange on c3. This discourages Black from playing the Grunfeld. But Black scores well from that line too.
3.Nf3 does encourage Black to play 3...c5 though. The point is that Modern Benoni lines where white has already played Nf3 are considered to be favorable to Black compared to lines where White can still play f2-f4.
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 does discourage the immediate ..d5, but Black will play 3...Bg7 which he always does, and now the move is White's: does he play 4.Nc3 where 4..d5 is a Grunfeld, or does he play something else?
Avoiding the Grunfeld is not a reason for 3.Nf3. If you want to avoid the Grunfeld at this point you need something like 3.g3 or 3.f3.
In general when your pawn is on c4 the N really wants to be behind it on c3. Just about the only Queen pawn opening where White shouldn't deploy the N there ASAP is against the Slav. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 and now 3.Nf3 is regarded as the most careful move order. 3.Nc3 gives Black a couple of additional options, 3...dxc4 and 3...e5!?, the latter of which is unplayable against 3.Nf3 and the former playable but much weaker.
Hope this helps.
It depends on what you want to play both against the KID and the Grunfeld. If you like the g3 systems against both (as many people do) then it's wise to defer Nc3 for a bit later, to avoid some Grunfeld-related annoyances. But in any case the knight will go there within the first ten moves.
Omitting c4 there are more cases where Nc3 is not played eaaly, or at all.
True, GCB. I was trying to find a rationale for 3.Nf3. Perhaps the offbeat 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.b4!? would be the best reason for that particular move order. But then Black simply plays a KID and white needs to justify that extra pawn push.
I don't think that's anything to be afraid of though. Clearly, 3.Nc3 is the preferable move order for most people.
Thanks to everyone for the very helpful discussion. I'm gonna stick with 3. Nc3. I need more practice (as white) against the Grunfeld and Benoni defenses... as far as I can tell, I've only played two games against each defense, and I don't know them at all. But that's another story...
I like 3.f3 and 3.Nc3, as well as 3.g3, but not 3.Nf3
Nc3 is typical... Nf3 often transposes, but blocks the 4 Pawns' Attack and the Samisch Variation.
How long did it take you to get you're rank?
by SicilianSveshnikov a few minutes ago
by very-agressive a few minutes ago
4/20/2014 - Nasty Surprise
by Theory77 a few minutes ago
by Disgruntled_Sheep a few minutes ago
4/19/2014 - Tisdall - Lee, London 1981
by EddyElm91 3 minutes ago
by Disgruntled_Sheep 4 minutes ago
Post your best miniatures here
by Barefoot_Player 6 minutes ago
Hurt Heal Chess Players
by TC2304 7 minutes ago
World's hardest chess problem
by kidchester99 10 minutes ago
Why Join | Chess Topics |
Help & Support |
© 2014 Chess.com
• Chess - English
We are working hard to make Chess.com available in over 70 languages. Check back over the year as we develop the technology to add more, and we will try our best to notify you when your language is ready for translating!