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Kings indian defense


  • 5 years ago · Quote · #1

    Seekthendefeat

    Im at the level where im starting to have "pet" openings for black as well as white, such as against e4 i will always play sicilian leading to the najdorf or dragon.

    against d4 or c4 however, i have decided to play the kings indian defense, and i am therefore trying to perfect it.

    I have already had quite a bit of sucess against it, only losing to people rated over 1800, but im just wondering whether any1 has any advice on how to play it

    such as, what blacks main plans and aims are etc.

    any ideas???

     

    here is an example of a game i played against who was rated around 1850, i ended up losing quite convincinly. If you scan through the game and notice any inaccuracies i made, my opponent made, or anything else incorrect, i would love to know about it.

     

    James.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #2

    monkeysbum

    I think Black's aims are to allow White to control the center with pawns, meanwhile attempting to control the center via mostly minor pieces.  The e5-e4 pawn break can be critical.  Also, moving Black's King's Knight off f6 can lead to discovered attacks, forks, etc.  If you are wanting to "perfect" the King's Indian Defense, you might also try the King's Indian Attack (KIA) with White.  The setup is the same as the King's Indian Defense, only with the White pieces.  

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #3

    JG27Pyth

    Your opponent played some smart, cagey moves.... he gave you the rope, and you hung yourself. 

    Opening up your castled pawns with 11.gxf5 was a poor move -- I just can't see opening up your (castled) kingside like that without some very tangible compensation like a strong attacking initiative -- but poor as gxf5 was, combining it with 18. Bxg3+? allowing your opponent to open the h-file for his rooks against your weakened kingside was suicide!

    18.Bxg3+? is a great example of a move you must learn to resist!  It seems to cleverly take advantage of check to win a pawn... so, it's got three things that make it irresistable to a run-of-the-mill player: It seems clever, it gives check, it wins material! How can that be bad? Well, it's worse than bad.

    You must only open files and/or diagonals when they benefit you -- never open them for your opponent if you can help it!  Winning a pawn must always be judged along with A: the time factor (do I have the time to spend a move taking this pawn) and B: Who benefits from clearing the pawn(s) am I opening up files and diagonals for myself or my opponent?

    In this case Bxg3+ won the pawn with check -- so the answer to A: do we have time for this?  is a definite yes! -- he has to answer the check, there's no loss of time at all -- but wait ... the answer to B is a resounding no... it should be obvious that the half open h-file is a gigantic benefit to him and only him -- it immediately creates attacking threats for him. Don't touch!

    We tend to think of blunders only as moves that lose material without compensation -- But Bxg3+ was a true positional blunder. And it cost you the game rather quickly.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #4

    Seekthendefeat

    JG27Pyth wrote:

    Opening up your castled pawns with 11.gxf5 was a poor move -- I just can't see opening up your (castled) kingside like that without some very tangible compensation like a strong attacking initiative -- but poor as gxf5 was, combining it with 18. Bxg3+? allowing your opponent to open the h-file for his rooks against your weakened kingside was suicide!


     hey, thanks for that valuable info, but im just wondering, instead of gxf5, what should of i played?

    sory for asking all these questions, im just extremly curious. :)

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #5

    JG27Pyth

     hey, thanks for that valuable info, but im just wondering, instead of gxf5, what should of i played?

    either Nxf5 or Bxf5 looks ok to me. Bxf5 makes sense from a development pointof view, but I'd want to thinkcarefullywhether I wanted to expose it to exchange with his N before I committed to it.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #6

    eaglex

    gxf5 is actually a correct move to keep the knight out of e4

    but Bh4+ is very bad move you should really keep that bishop with something like Bh8 

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #7

    JG27Pyth

    eaglex wrote:

    gxf5 is actually a correct move to keep the knight out of e4

    but Bh4+ is very bad move you should really keep that bishop with something like Bh8 


    I'm not convinced.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #8

    eaglex

    ok in game explorer there is 45 games with gxf5 in main line Ne1 Nd7

    1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Nd3 f511.exf5 gxf5 

    and 38  games with Nxf5

    and in saemich vartion f3 there is 69 games with gxf5 and 2 with bxf5

    1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 O-O 6.Be3 e5 7.d5 c6 8.Bd3 cxd5 9.cxd5 Nh5 10.Nge2 f511.f5 

    black scoring much better in gxf5 too

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #9

    __zugzwang

    I think the main points have bveen stated. 1) gxf5 is the move that's gnerally recommended in the books and what I play myself. 2) opening a file you can't control, your opponent can and it directly attacks your castled position was a major blunder. Otherwise, you appear to have a good handle in the KID against the Samiesch setup.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #10

    __zugzwang

    The KID and sicilian (najdorf, dragon, sometimes scheveningen and Kan are what I play. I also will sometimes play a Grunefeld, Lenningrad Dutch or Benoni, but not very often these days.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #11

    Scarblac

    Is 13...e4 something?

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #12

    sbowers3

    Even though the "book" seems to favor gxf5, I prefer Nxf5 because it gives you a half-open file for your rook - on the same file as the enemy King. Note also, that if your pawn had remained at g6, white's knight could not have moved to h5. 15...Bh4+ fits Fischer's observation "Patzer sees a check, patzer takes a check." It had no strategic or tactical purpose (other than to escape from the white knight).

    I think a better move than 20...Rf6 would have been Kg7. That would have allowed the rook to move to h8, and then the knight to g8, giving good protection to your pawn. Somewhere along the way you could have moved Bd7 to keep the knight from b5, and also allowing the other rook to get into the game.

    The worst mistake might have been 22...Ng6. I know that you were trying to protect the c7 pawn but that cost you the h pawn and your queen. It might have been better to give up the c7 pawn by Bd7 Nxc7 Rc8.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #13

    JG27Pyth

    ok in game explorer there is 45 games with gxf5 in main line Ne1 Nd7 --

    If gxf5 is book, what can I say, it's book...when I called it a poor move I was shooting from the hip, and I'm no expert in the King's Indian -- As I said in my initial post, I would want compensation for opening up the Kingside like that... apparently some compensation is there... also, analysis will sometimes show that an apparent weakness, such as is created after gxf5, isn't really as weak as it appears because the enemy has no good way of taking advantage of the weakness and that is perhaps the case here...

    However:

    I will say this -- moves like gxf5 can be quite dangerous -- if you're playing book without understanding what you're doing you can find yourself quite in a muddle when you do leave book. Just because gxf5 is book with a higher winning percentage than other moves doesn't mean it's flexible and safe and the best move for an ordinary player to improvise around. Sometimes the line that promises "mere equality" is a whole helluva lot easier for a class-player to play, sensibly, against another class player, than the theoretically superior line which walks a razors edge for a dozen moves and which was devised by, and for, 2600+ players. I'm not saying that's the case with gxf5 specifically, but (hipshooting again) gxf5 looks fairly dramatic and commital to me and I'd want to have some familiarity with the games it leads to before playing it.

    Anyway, what set me off, and what I still stand by, is that the combination of 11.gxf5 and 18.Bxg3+ is suicide -- you can't play those two moves together. Playing 18.Bx3+ shows that while the OP may have been playing book at 11. gxf5, he didn't understand the resulting pawns and how to work with them. 


  • 5 years ago · Quote · #15

    Seekthendefeat

    thanks all, yeah im starting to understand my blunders in the game and why they are blunders.

    i now know why gxf6 accompanied by Bxg3+ was suicide :(

    @reb, yeah the reason i started looking into the KID in the first place was becuz i have a chess games database on my ipod, and i looked into some kasparov games... (i think the app is free i highly recommend it).

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #16

    shuttlechess92

    Personal preference 8... exd4.  The reason for this move is that when White moves his king so (weirdly), it is actually better to open the center. If you play to close the center (with Ne8), then the king might actually be safe on f2!

    I'm surprised that you never played ...e4 - seeking to expose the white king on the f file with discovered check.

    A great book: "play the king's indian" by Joe Gallagher. His other book, "Starting out: the king's indian" is supposedly good, but I've only read play the king's indian. It has a complete repertoire as well as explanations for themes, etc.

    You might like my blog post,

    http://blog.chess.com/shuttlechess92/forever-a-kid-1-e80-saemisch

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #17

    Tricklev

    howlzamimaru do you mind giving a link (or sending a personal message if you wan´t the thread to stay ontopic) I haven´t found a database or similiar to my ipod myself.

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #18

    MikeAP001

    I think Black could have won up until move 20.  Here's my version of things:

    Mike
  • 5 years ago · Quote · #19

    MikeAP001

    A little clarification, CM9000 played White while I played Black after 20. Rh4.  The first 19 moves were by you and your opponent.  So, you probably had a decent enough position to win if you understood the power of your pieces a little better and the objectives of your opening.  You might want to read the comments and note how to make your position stronger to avoid some problems in the endgame especially on the Queenside.  In analogous positions Morphy and Fischer played a thematic c5, a6 and Qb6 on the Black side and fit those in your play. 

    Note: this line might be valid only against the CM9000 Alekhine personality.

    Mike

  • 5 years ago · Quote · #20

    sgt_pepper

    There's 3 things that lost you this game. He made an unnussual move on his 8th move, which threw you off, and made you think you should disrupt you defence by moving the knight to set up for a quick check. You should have been patient and just continue to develop your peices.

     

    Number two, you let him put far too much pressure on your king. And finnally, you should not of resigned when you were only down one material point. He was rookless. Unless there's a forced mate coming, resigning is the worst move you can make 100%


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