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Maroczy bind against e6 style sicilians


  • 3 years ago · Quote · #1

    bigyugi9

    How does a player with the black pieces deal with the Maroczy bind formation if he is playing e6 sicilians such as kan/paulsen/taimanov?

    Here is one common move order:

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #2

    mschosting

    there are zillions of games from this position, black can do pretty much anything, I like to keep my B at e6 castle and if possible play d5

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #3

    TwoMove

    For moves shown 6...Bb4 is pretty easy equaliser 7NxN b7xc6 8Bd3 e5. Unless white wants to try a gambit.

     

    Against early Nc6, Taimanov, 5Nb5 d6 6c4 is more respected way of getting hedgehog setup. After 6...Nf6 7Nc3 a6 8Na3 black can play against Na3.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #4

    bigyugi9

    TwoMove wrote:

    For moves shown 6...Bb4 is pretty easy equaliser 7NxN b7xc6 8Bd3 e5. Unless white wants to try a gambit.

     

    Against early Nc6, Taimanov, 5Nb5 d6 6c4 is more respected way of getting hedgehog setup. After 6...Nf6 7Nc3 a6 8Na3 black can play against Na3.

    Yes I am investigating the bb4 lines after 6...bb4 and it seems pretty equal.  in the  early nc6 if they go with nb5 i feel its not favorable for me to play d6...not because im afraid of c4 there, but because of bf4 forcing me to play e5 and going into sveshnikov.  Therefore, I am trying to avoid that by meeting 5. nb5 with 5....bb4.  However, it seems like in those lines black cant really fight for a win and has an isolated queen pawn.  Theoretically it is supposed to be equal maybe a little pull for white, but i feel like there is no counter play for black.  Any ideas on this line? or do i need to allow the sveshnikov and just learn that theory.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #5

    TwoMove

    5...d6 6Bf4 e5 7Be3 isn't quite a Sveshnikov. After something like 7...Nf6 8Nc3 a6 9Na3 Be7 10Bg5 black is a tempo up on standard Sveshnikov. Have a look at first game Fischer v Petrosian 1972, white was in trouble from opening, although eventually won.

    5...Bb4 is playble too, but white gets nagging edge with two bishops after 6a3 etc.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #6

    TwoMove

    That Petrosian 71 game actually went 7...Nf6 8Bg5 Be6 9Nb1-c3 a6 10BxN pxB 11Na3 d5!

    Think modern theory thinks 7...a6 more accurate.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #7

    PrawnEatsPrawn

    Don't believe the hype. If you are less than expert, you need some help against the Maroczy Bind. 

     

    My advice would be to find some way of varying your move order/repertoire to avoid this monster, at least for the moment. 

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #8

    bigyugi9

    TwoMove wrote:

    5...d6 6Bf4 e5 7Be3 isn't quite a Sveshnikov. After something like 7...Nf6 8Nc3 a6 9Na3 Be7 10Bg5 black is a tempo up on standard Sveshnikov. Have a look at first game Fischer v Petrosian 1972, white was in trouble from opening, although eventually won.

    5...Bb4 is playble too, but white gets nagging edge with two bishops after 6a3 etc.


     The thing is they dont have to play 7. be3.  They can just go 7. bg5 and we get a sveshnikov.  It doesnt make sense for them to go be3 and a few moves later go bg5..When they can go bg5 immediately after e5.

     

    Also how do i find a move order with e6 style sicilians that avoids maroczy..it seems like white can play it whenever he wants.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #9

    TwoMove

    They can't play 7Bg5, it drops a piece.

     

    The two main choices are either allowing hedgehog type position. Personally play an early Nc6, Taimanov, when only hedgehog type position allow is one with Na3.

     

    Alternative is move order with early Nf6 forcing Nc3,

    1e4 c5 2Nf3 Nc6 3d4 pxp 4Nxp  Nf6 5Nc3 e6 when after 6Nb5 d6 etc does transpose to Svesnikov, or 6...Bb4 four knights. White has alternative of 6NxN pxN 7e5 though.

     

    So not such thing as perfect move order. Have to decide what want to allow.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #10

    bigyugi9

    TwoMove wrote:

    They can't play 7Bg5, it drops a piece.

     

    The two main choices are either allowing hedgehog type position. Personally play an early Nc6, Taimanov, when only hedgehog type position allow is one with Na3.

     

    Alternative is move order with early Nf6 forcing Nc3,

    1e4 c5 2Nf3 Nc6 3d4 pxp 4Nxp  Nf6 5Nc3 e6 when after 6Nb5 d6 etc does transpose to Svesnikov, or 6...Bb4 four knights. White has alternative of 6NxN pxN 7e5 though.

     

    So not such thing as perfect move order. Have to decide what want to allow.


     Alright I see what you are saying.  If i'm playing early nc6 lines, taimanov, how should I meet 5. nc3 if I want to avoid sveshnikov?...also 4 knights leads to positions where i give up the darksquared bishop early and black can hardly win.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #11

    TwoMove

    1e4 c5 2Nf3 Nc6 3d4 pxp 4Nxp e6 5Nc3 would play 5...Qc7 then a later a6. There isn't much likelyhood of Sveshnikov anymore.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #12

    bigyugi9

    TwoMove wrote:

    1e4 c5 2Nf3 Nc6 3d4 pxp 4Nxp e6 5Nc3 would play 5...Qc7 then a later a6. There isn't much likelyhood of Sveshnikov anymore.


     

    Alright in that line what are the suggested moves/plan for black if white castles kingside?  I can never find the correct approach.  If white castles queenside the bb4 lines are pretty good i believe.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #13

    TwoMove

    Taimanov has quite a few lines, a good book on the subject is "Safest Sicilian" by Delchev. One idea is black gets a more comfortable position by avoiding playing d6 if possible. For example 1.e4 c5 2Nf3 e6 3d4 pxp 4nxp Nc6 5Nc3 Qc7 (5...a6 possible if happy with 6NxN b7xN 7Bd3) 6Be2 a6 70.0 Nf6 8Be3 Bb4 with pressure on e-pawn. Then a well-known line is 9Na4 Be7 10NxN b7xN 11Nb6 Rb8 12NxB QxNetc White has two bishops, but black good pawn structure and can try to use rooks actively. The idea of keeping pawn on d7, is less vunerable than on d6, and might get chance for imediate d5. Sometimes the black square bishop can go to Bc5 or Bd6. Like most opening some critical lines should learn, i.e why after 9Na4 taking e-pawn not such a good idea.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #14

    bigyugi9

    TwoMove wrote:

    Taimanov has quite a few lines, a good book on the subject is "Safest Sicilian" by Delchev. One idea is black gets a more comfortable position by avoiding playing d6 if possible. For example 1.e4 c5 2Nf3 e6 3d4 pxp 4nxp Nc6 5Nc3 Qc7 (5...a6 possible if happy with 6NxN b7xN 7Bd3) 6Be2 a6 70.0 Nf6 8Be3 Bb4 with pressure on e-pawn. Then a well-known line is 9Na4 Be7 10NxN b7xN 11Nb6 Rb8 12NxB QxNetc White has two bishops, but black good pawn structure and can try to use rooks actively. The idea of keeping pawn on d7, is less vunerable than on d6, and might get chance for imediate d5. Sometimes the black square bishop can go to Bc5 or Bd6. Like most opening some critical lines should learn, i.e why after 9Na4 taking e-pawn not such a good idea.


    Thanks for the help! How common are the na4 lines sub master level? I feel like people wont know the na4 line.  IS there any alternative line that white plays instead of na4?

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #15

    dv2890

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #16

    TwoMove

    9Na4 clearly best in that position, if white tries to defend e-pawn with f3 then black gets a good game by getting in d5. There are hundreds of games with 9Na4, and have certainly had it played against me at my level. There are lots of white alternatives like 6Be3 then Qd2 and castles queenside, 6be3 then Bd3 and 0.0, 6f4, 6g3etc. Worth looking at Taimanov's own games to see main ideas, before getting bogged down in too much theory. At our lower level, opponents likely deviant from critical lines quite early, and just need to be alert to tactics.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #17

    bigyugi9

    TwoMove wrote:

    9Na4 clearly best in that position, if white tries to defend e-pawn with f3 then black gets a good game by getting in d5. There are hundreds of games with 9Na4, and have certainly had it played against me at my level. There are lots of white alternatives like 6Be3 then Qd2 and castles queenside, 6be3 then Bd3 and 0.0, 6f4, 6g3etc. Worth looking at Taimanov's own games to see main ideas, before getting bogged down in too much theory. At our lower level, opponents likely deviant from critical lines quite early, and just need to be alert to tactics.


    Alright thanks for all the help! one final question: What are the merits in playing 2. nc6 then e6 as opposed to e6 then doing nc6?  Which way is better or what are the merits of both ways?

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #18

    TwoMove

    Playing 2...e6 or 2...Nc6 is just a matter of which anti-sicilians want to avoid/allow. Personnally think 2...Nc6 3Bb5 is a decent line and worth avoiding. Other people might not like 2...e6 3c3 but personally happy playing sicilian line after 3...Nf6 or transposing to French after 3...d5. The book "safest sicilian" covers 2...e6 move order.


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