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OUTRAGEOUS Opening Novelty!!!!!!!!!!


  • 21 months ago · Quote · #1

    DaBigOne

    OK here it is:

    While looking through these lines, it occurs to me that many of the lines are a forced draw by repetition. Does this mean that the Four Pawns Attack is a draw with best play?

    Comments are welcome and appreciated.

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #2

    DaBigOne

    bump

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #3

    DaBigOne

    bump

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #4

    vowles_23

    I don't know. I'm not sure that it deserves so many capital letters or exclamation marks.

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #5

    JoshG354

    Am I missing something, why not take the knight with the queen on move 16.

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #6

    varelse1

    White is in check from the queen still.

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #7

    JoshG354

    Oh I'm blind.  Thanks

    Please be relevant, helpful & nice!

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #8

    Phaedrus25

    DragonflyHunter wrote:

    ...and the 4-pawn attack isn't exactly known for its soundness.

     

    - Exxxxxxactly.

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #11

    DaBigOne

    d5 after fxe4? Doesn't that just lose a piece?

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #12

    DaBigOne

    In hindsight, the name was a BIT too exagerrated.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #13

    Dutchday

    I don't have the lines you have. For starters, there is 9.d5 with plenty of play. 

    I also have 10...Nb4 and not 11...Nb4, but it looks interesting.

    I don't like the a3 line as much. 16.Qd8 Kg7 17. 0-0 Bd6 18.g3 looks at least a bit better. I do like the black bishops. My engine goes on to suggest a timely Rxf6/Qxf6 and the material is even. Black has good bishops.

    Back to the main, I like 12.0-0 much better intuitively. It isn't really working though 2.0-0 Nc2 (Im guessing) 13.Bc5. Pieces come off, and black can win a pawn back with Nxe4 and Bxb2 at the end of the line. Again really good bishops. 

    Then I thought of 12.Nf3 and my engine saw no tricks. 12...Nc6 13.Bc5 Qxd1 14.Rxd1 Te8 15.Nd2 and white is still holding on to the pawn for now.

    So how about the simple 12.Nf3 rather than 12.Bc5?

    (I'm going to have to check back tomorrow, this is my answer for now.)

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #14

    Icy_Clench

    Well, anything is a draw with best play, really.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #15

    TheGreatOogieBoogie

    DaBigOne wrote:

    OK here it is:

     

    While looking through these lines, it occurs to me that many of the lines are a forced draw by repetition. Does this mean that the Four Pawns Attack is a draw with best play?

    Comments are welcome and appreciated.

    Even the Grob and maybe even the Borg (as terrible as they are) draw with best play.  The KID is much sounder than those systems. 

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #16

    DaBigOne

    Dutchday wrote:

    I don't have the lines you have. For starters, there is 9.d5 with plenty of play. 

    I also have 10...Nb4 and not 11...Nb4, but it looks interesting.

    I don't like the a3 line as much. 16.Qd8 Kg7 17. 0-0 Bd6 18.g3 looks at least a bit better. I do like the black bishops. My engine goes on to suggest a timely Rxf6/Qxf6 and the material is even. Black has good bishops.

    Back to the main, I like 12.0-0 much better intuitively. It isn't really working though 2.0-0 Nc2 (Im guessing) 13.Bc5. Pieces come off, and black can win a pawn back with Nxe4 and Bxb2 at the end of the line. Again really good bishops. 

    Then I thought of 12.Nf3 and my engine saw no tricks. 12...Nc6 13.Bc5 Qxd1 14.Rxd1 Te8 15.Nd2 and white is still holding on to the pawn for now.

    So how about the simple 12.Nf3 rather than 12.Bc5?

    (I'm going to have to check back tomorrow, this is my answer for now.)

    Well, for d5, Nc5! seems to be good, and Black will have counterplay against White with moves like c6. He also has some tricks like after a natural move like Qc2?!, Nfxe4! Nxe4 Bf5, which is winning by -0.50.

    10... Nb4 is a perfectly good move, but I chose cxd4 since in Timothy Taylor's book "Beating the KID and Grunfeld", he says that after cxd4 Bxd4 Nb4, as suggested by Vaisser, is refuted by Bc5!. I was curious, and unearthed this piece of analysis.

    The a3 line is just a side-line, to show what happens if the opponents deviated. Overall, it is still a draw like the mainline.

    If you continue 12. 0-0, what happens is 12. 0-0 Nc2 Bc5 Nxa1 Bxf8 Qxd1 Rxd1 Bxf8 Rxa1 Bc5+ Kf1 Bd4. A drawish position, I must admit, but Black may have an edge after he inflicts doubled pawns on c3.

    Last but not least, Nf3. I should have mentioned this line, but I only focused on the critical Bc5. Anyways, instead of Nc6, how about Re8?

    Then after 0-0 (Houdini feels it is better to give up the pawn) Nxe4 Bxg7 Qxd1 Raxd1 Kxg7 Nxe4 Rxe4, the position is drawish.But let us not forget, the main line itself results in a draw, so a draw is not bad at all.

    Thanks for commenting.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #17

    Dutchday

    I'm pretty much going to agree with most of that, though it isn't exactly what I had. 

    9.d5 is supposed to be best in my book. I have a totally different line, or maybe two:

    9...Nc5 10.Bg5 h6 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.b4 Na6 13.a3 c5 14.Rb1 Bd7 15.b5 Nc7 etc etc and the knight is being chased, though black has the bishop.

    The other line: 12...Nxe4!? 13.Nxe4 Qf4 14Nfd2 f5 15.g3 Qe3 16.Qb3 Qd4 17.Nc3

    I don't know what to think of it, it's just my book line. None of that looks simplified/drawish to me. White has a solid space advantage in the first line anyway. Not sure the piece sac in the other line is good.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #18

    DaBigOne

    After the first line mentioned, instead of 12. Na6, my computer is suggesting Nd7. If 0-0? Then Qb6+!, and winning the pawn on b4. So after c5, a5 looks good to me. After a3 Qf4, the position looks equal. Black has an active queen, which can arrive on e3, while White has a q-side iniative.

    I cannot make sense of the second line. After Nfxe4!? Nxe4, Qf4 is not possible, the queen is on d8.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #19

    Dutchday

    My engine would also suggest Nd7 rather than the theoretical move. After a3 or Qd2, white would still have a little space advantage. I'd say it's the most play of everything mentioned. 

    The line I gave does look OK to me. The queen is on f6, same as at the start of the line. It's a very weird line, but not impossible.


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