Overrated Openings

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17th February 2009, 01:24pm
#41
by katar
Los Angeles, CA United States
Member Since: May 2007
Member Points: 17
ericmittens wrote:

Wow...I always thought e5 was the more popular, I must be losing my memory in my old age. Still, seeing as black scores the same playing e5 and c5, e5 should be every bit as good as c5...and therefore underrated.


FYI, at the SuperGM level (2700+) 1...e5 seems to be more popular than 1...c5.

In the 2007 Fide World Championship Tournament, won by Anand, there were 4 Sicilians (1...c5) and 21 Open Games (1...e5).

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?page=1&tid=62324

17th February 2009, 01:39pm
#42
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1874
katar wrote:
ericmittens wrote:

Wow...I always thought e5 was the more popular, I must be losing my memory in my old age. Still, seeing as black scores the same playing e5 and c5, e5 should be every bit as good as c5...and therefore underrated.


FYI, at the SuperGM level (2700+) 1...e5 seems to be more popular than 1...c5.

In the 2007 Fide World Championship Tournament, won by Anand, there were 4 Sicilians (1...c5) and 21 Open Games (1...e5).

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?page=1&tid=62324


Katar to the rescue!

I knew I was seeing more e5 at Corus/Linares and all those big events. I think it's because the sicilian is so sharp, a novelty could mean the game in a lot of these big events, so the GMs tend to stick to the more solid e5.

17th February 2009, 02:26pm
#43
by ManicDragon
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 627

I wouldn't say that the general Sicilian is overrated, as the Kan and Paulsen are probably underrated. There's far too much discussion on the Najdorf, though, due to the advocacy of Fischer (enough about the Poison Pawn Variation, already!) and Kasparov.

17th February 2009, 03:57pm
#44
by kid_of_chess
Ottawa,Ontario Canada
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 5803
movegameswhite wins / draw / black wins
1...c5 630,576
37.1% 27.9% 35%
1...e5 352,791
43% 26.8% 30.2%
17th February 2009, 04:21pm
#45
by dmeng
Knoxville, TN United States
Member Since: Jul 2008
Member Points: 308
eloihunter wrote:

I think the advance variation in the french is overrated.  I usually have no trouble equalizing.  


Well, I'd have to agree with you there. As someone who has played it on both sides, I'd say that it is indeed overrated as Black can equalize easily, and does better than in the other French lines.

Personally, I find that overrated/underrated depends on the level of player as well. For example, 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 is overrated among starting players, while the Sicilian and KIA are overrated for slightly better players, and so on.

17th February 2009, 04:32pm
#46
by wormrose
Lake Tahoe, NV United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 2918

1.e4 is the most overrated. So many people play the Sicilians that it's just plain annoying. Hypermodernism has been around for about a hundred years and yet people are still afraid of it - like it's still an experiment?!? Yell  Do you want to drive down an overcrowded freeway in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic... or do you hear faint drumbeats somewhere out there on the horizon? Wink

17th February 2009, 07:58pm
#47
by Spiffe
Orlando, FL United States
Member Since: Sep 2008
Member Points: 954

Interesting counter-discussion to the "Underrated Openings" thread.

My personal opinion is that there are some trappy gambits that are quite overrated -- Smith-Morra, Blackmar-Diemer, and Albin Countergambit leap to mind.  That may be a stylistic preference, though -- I don't mind defending a little while for a pawn, especially when I don't have to defend for very long or very much. Wink

I'm not sure how people think the Queen's Gambit is overrated.  It's not daring and sexy like a real "gambit", but it's clearly the strongest continuation after d4 d5.  In fact, if I were to pick an overrated classical opening, I might say ...d5, because of the Queen's Gambit.  Really, it scores rather poorly -- Game Explorer gives it 43% win for white, against 25% for black, with not much variation among the Orthodox QGD, Slav, or QGA.

At any rate, I'm sure this thread will provoke a lot more emotions than one asking about underrated openings. Smile

17th February 2009, 08:32pm
#48
by rexbo
tasmania Australia
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 430
ericmittens wrote:
rexbo wrote:

Ok game on pride where your mouth is I want a match not an opening thing I just dislike being called an ameteur we can discuss the conditions of the match soon. I really beg to differ with the whole e5 is more popular maybe time ago but sicilians are the modern cure to 1.e4 it isn't overrated it is simply blacks best shot.


Oh, you're 15...now I understand.


 SO.... are we playing or not? seeing you have all the knowledge all the stats I should go down like a sack o' potatoes eh? Defend your opinion.

17th February 2009, 08:55pm
#49
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1874

Yes, because an online game between a 1600 player and an unrated 15 year old is going to settle the theoretical dispute once and for all.

Go away troll.

17th February 2009, 09:03pm
#50
by Ziryab
Spokane, Washington United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 1505
katar wrote:

FYI, at the SuperGM level (2700+) 1...e5 seems to be more popular than 1...c5.

In the 2007 Fide World Championship Tournament, won by Anand, there were 4 Sicilians (1...c5) and 21 Open Games (1...e5).

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?page=1&tid=62324


Too small of a sample. You might as well look at San Luis 2005 and conclude that super-GMs had abandoned 1.d4 because it was so rare there. But then, the recent Kramnik-Topalov match might lead you to believe that the best players had given up on 1.e4.

I searched my database (three million games) using as criteria: Elo avg. above 2700

1.e4 e5 1552 games

1.e4 c5 1943 games

The Sicilian is more popular among super-GMs.

17th February 2009, 09:26pm
#51
by rexbo
tasmania Australia
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 430
ericmittens wrote:

Yes, because an online game between a 1600 player and an unrated 15 year old is going to settle the theoretical dispute once and for all.

Go away troll.


 Not here to settle theoretical debates over 1...c5 vs 1...e5 because I know that I am correct. I am disprove your comments about me being an amateur or you even using this against harsh word against me. So if you are willing to play then so am I infact I challenge you.

Easy defense isn't it calling me a troll...nice save now you don't look like someone scared of losing not one single game but an entire match to a kid.

17th February 2009, 09:42pm
#52
by Immanuel
Quezon City Philippines
Member Since: Dec 2007
Member Points: 75

I agree about the Sicilian Najdorf.  If you're Kasparov or Fischer it's fine.  I used to play it, but nearly always with disastrous consequences.  I have wisened up and play other defenses now.

17th February 2009, 10:39pm
#53
by Ziryab
Spokane, Washington United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 1505
georgetownlaw wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
katar wrote:

FYI, at the SuperGM level (2700+) 1...e5 seems to be more popular than 1...c5.

In the 2007 Fide World Championship Tournament, won by Anand, there were 4 Sicilians (1...c5) and 21 Open Games (1...e5).

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?page=1&tid=62324


Too small of a sample. You might as well look at San Luis 2005 and conclude that super-GMs had abandoned 1.d4 because it was so rare there. But then, the recent Kramnik-Topalov match might lead you to believe that the best players had given up on 1.e4.

I searched my database (three million games) using as criteria: Elo avg. above 2700

1.e4 e5 1552 games

1.e4 c5 1943 games

The Sicilian is more popular among super-GMs.


You should also prune the result to only include games say within the last 4 years.


1...c5 still leads, but the margin is thinner: 1001 to 946. There were fewer players above 2700 until the past couple of years, so the recent years account for the bulk of the games.

There may be evidence of a trent towards 1...e5 among Super-GMs, perhaps due to the resurgence of popularity of the Marshall and the Petroff.

17th February 2009, 11:35pm
#54
by psilohead
South Dakota United States
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 67

I think the Queens Gambit declined is pretty over-rated.

18th February 2009, 11:13am
#55
by KillaBeez
Kansas United States
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 4072

The Advance French and the Sicilian defense are extremely overrated.

18th February 2009, 11:19am
#56
by NM Reb
Lisbon Portugal
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 4133
KillaBeez wrote:

The Advance French and the Sicilian defense are extremely overrated.


 I dont know how you can claim the sicilian is overrated when it scores better for black than any other black opening ?

18th February 2009, 11:21am
#57
by nufc10
Durham United Kingdom
Member Since: Jul 2007
Member Points: 5

I think the Advance French scores quite well also.

18th February 2009, 11:51am
#58
by ericmittens
London, ON Canada
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 1874
Reb wrote:
KillaBeez wrote:

The Advance French and the Sicilian defense are extremely overrated.


 I dont know how you can claim the sicilian is overrated when it scores better for black than any other black opening ?


Hmmm....maybe "overplayed" is a better word for the sicilian then.

18th February 2009, 12:52pm
#59
by Icanfight
TN United States
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 53

It doesn't matter much until you become probably at least 1800 USCF because you are going to screw up the middlegame somewhere anyway. What good is a slight advantage when you hang a pawn or make a huge positional blunder? I like to study openings also but real chess is the middlegame. For the sake of this forum question: I play the Colle some and it won't be found in master chess so it must be overated among club players. It is popular with books,etc.

Note: I guess Fisher did not know much about chess since he played the KID and the Sicilian almost exclusively.

18th February 2009, 03:14pm
#60
by KillaBeez
Kansas United States
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 4072

Fine, I really didn't mean overrated.  It's just that some people play the Sicilian so much that it has 30 moves of theory before you can actually play a chess game.  On the other hand, the Advance French is REALLY overrated.


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