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Philidor's Defense Exchange variation


  • 3 years ago · Quote · #1

    gregkluzak

    What do you think of this opening? I tried it and I like it because when white plays Nxd4 I think that the knight is now on a bad square. It's better on f3. There seems to be good possibilities with this opening.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #2

    ZenRat

    Don't think a lot one way or the other.  It's the mainline, so the capture is a good one.  White is very strong here, and the mainlines certainly favor white...but black is fine, too.  Not sure what else to tell you.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #3

    mrguy888

    gregkluzak wrote:

     

    What do you think of this opening? I tried it and I like it because when white plays Nxd4 I think that the knight is now on a bad square. It's better on f3. There seems to be good possibilities with this opening.

     


    D4 is not a bad square. White gets more space and easier development.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #4

    mrguy888

    ajedrecito wrote:

    I agree with the above poster. d4 is quite a good square for the Knight. Sometimes (specifically in the Larsen variation with 4...g6 and opposite side castling) the Knight is a target for Black's queenside aggression with c5, b5, c4 etc. but in general a knight in the center is as strong as a piece.


    But if c5 is played to chase around the Knight then white is more than compensated by the backward d6 pawn.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #5

    mrguy888

    ajedrecito wrote:

    Generally, that's the case. In some concrete positions it's actually in Black's best interest to push c5, but this usually is the case after the White Bishop has moved to c4 (or b3) and can be trapped or threatened.


    True, but I find many players press c5 right after you put a knight on d4 in this position. I think it might be a reason the OP thinks a d4 knight is weak when that is not a weakness.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #6

    DonnieDarko1980

    I like Tarrasch's line (4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Bb5) better than 4. Nxd4.

    Good that you bring up Philidor's Defense once again, yesterday I scored a pretty easy win OTB with white against it (however not 3. ... exd4 but 3. ... Bg4?!) I'm always glad if after 1. e4 e5 my opponent plays this :)

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #7

    ZenRat

    ajedrecito wrote:

    4...Nc6 is inaccurate I believe, with a preference going among Philidor players to 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 followed by castling and only then playing Nc6.


    I think that among high-level Philidor players, 4...a6 has been in favor against 4.Qxd4 for a while now, with my database showing black with a plus score in this line.  I understood it is the reason the early queen capture has essentially disappeared from master play.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #8

    DonnieDarko1980

    I can't remember a game in which 4. Qxd4 was not replied by 4. ... Nc6, however my games are not "master level" :)

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #9

    jontycampbell

    Having a game right now as white with the Phil Exchange, which I followed with standard moves book but then black replied with a surprise:

    3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 c5

     

    With 4. ...c5 Black is making me pick off pawns rather than develop. Not sure what Black's game is here. I'm shuffling pieces now...arg, I hate moving pieces twice early! 5. Nf3... again! Back and forth.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #10

    ThrillerFan

    This opening isn't very good for Black.  The Antoshin and Larsen variations have both proven good for White (as has the Counter-Gambit line, 3...f5), and the Hanham, via 3...Nf6 instead of 3...exd4, White should play the Exchange Variation (3...exd4 is NOT the Exchange Variation), namely 4.dxe5 Nxe4 (This constitutes the "Exchange" Variation) 5.Qd5!.

    If Black wants to play the Philidor, I would recommend the Hanham Variation, but getting there via a different move order:

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 and now Black has 2 choices, depending on which "Anti-Philidor" line he would rather face:

    A) 3...e5 and if 4.Nf3, then 4...Nbd7 is the Hanham.  Otherwise, Black must be willing to play the endgame line with 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 and White has 6.Bc4 or 6.Bg5 at his disposal.  Both lead to the same basic miniscule advantage that White gets for going first.

    B) 3...Nd7 (If Black isn't willing to deal with the Queen trade) allows 4.f4 or 4.g4, while 4.Nf3 Nf6 is the Hanham.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #11

    jontycampbell

    Wait, is it the Phil exchange or not?

    http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-opening-database/moves/e4-e5-Nf3-d6-d4-exd4-nxd4

    Here's my plan as white:

    1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 d6  3. d4 exd4  4. Nxd4 c5 

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #12

    Estragon

    ZenRat wrote:
    ajedrecito wrote:

    4...Nc6 is inaccurate I believe, with a preference going among Philidor players to 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 followed by castling and only then playing Nc6.


    I think that among high-level Philidor players, 4...a6 has been in favor against 4.Qxd4 for a while now, with my database showing black with a plus score in this line.  I understood it is the reason the early queen capture has essentially disappeared from master play.

    Your database may classify 4 ...Nc6  5 Bb5 as Ruy Lopez C62 Informant code instead of the Philidor.  The Philidor move order gives Black the chance to avoid the line with good chances, so you are quite right that White now avoids 4 Qxd4 in this move order.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #13

    Scottrf

    jontycampbell wrote:

    With 4. ...c5 Black is making me pick off pawns rather than develop. Not sure what Black's game is here. I'm shuffling pieces now...arg, I hate moving pieces twice early! 5. Nf3... again! Back and forth.

     

    If he chases with his pawns he isn't developing pieces either.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #15

    Estragon

    jontycampbell wrote:

    Wait, is it the Phil exchange or not?

    http://www.chessvideos.tv/chess-opening-database/moves/e4-e5-Nf3-d6-d4-exd4-nxd4

    Here's my plan as white:

    1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 d6  3. d4 exd4  4. Nxd4 c5 

    That is completely awful for Black.  ...c5 weakens the d5 square for no good reason, and neglects development.  It's not losing, just sort of passive and unchallenging.  White is fine with 5 Nf3 with the idea of 6 Nc3, 7 Bb5, and a quick 0-0, or he can angle with 5 Bb5+ Bd7  6 Bxd7+ Qxd7  7 Nf5 with idea that if Black kicks with ...g6, Ne3 aiming at the weak d5 square. 

    Either way, it is very hard for Black to do more than defend, he has put himself in a position without clear prospects to counterattack.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #16

    AnthonyCG

    ...c5 is really only acceptable if White castles queenside and you just really gotta do something.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #17

    jontycampbell

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #19

    waffllemaster

    jontycampbell wrote:

    Having a game right now as white with the Phil Exchange, which I followed with standard moves book but then black replied with a surprise:

    3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 c5

    with 4. ...c5 Black is making me pick off pawns rather than develop. Not sure what Black's game is here. I'm shuffling pieces now...arg, I hate moving pieces twice early! 5. Nf3... again! Back and forth



    When I was first learning basics (backward pawns, knight outposts and such) I came upon the position you posted and after a long think I was very proud to find Ne2 planning Nf4-d5 and Nc3 which also hits d5... I thought I was becoming a chess genius Smile

    Anyway... as others say, c5 is very bad.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #20

    jontycampbell

    pfren wrote:

    I guess after 5.Bb5+ Bd7 6.Nc3 the knight on d4 is poisoned... or you simply blundered it? 

    My knight on d4 was there after standard Philidor play but I wasn't going to let black have a pawn-knight exchange . Could have gone back to f3, but with my e4 pawn I guess f5 is good for my knight at the moment.

    So far
     1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 d6  3. d4 exd4  4. Nxd4 c5 5. Bb5+ Bd7

    6. Nc3 a6 7. BxB+ NxB 8. Nf3

    I'm thinking of Bf4 next, then castling.


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