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Playing ...Nc6 in the Queen's Gambit


  • 11 months ago · Quote · #1

    TitanCG

    Is it possible to play Nc6 and get into queen's gambit positions? I saw a game in Chigorin's defence in which Black seemed to play this way and get a normal position.



  • 11 months ago · Quote · #2

    TwoMove

    With white able to develop Bg5, it's probably not good. There are Rubinstein Nimzo with early e3, where playing nc6 is playable.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #3

    pellik

    The Chigorin w/o Bg4 is pretty weak, imo. 

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #4

    TennesseeThunder

    You can most certainly play Nc6 in the Queens Gambit Accepted.  that can lead to interesting games... Showalter variation i think it's called, check it out.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #5

    TitanCG

    After 5.Bg5 Nf6 White can play 6.Qa4 and transpose to another line called Ragozin. But since the knight is already on c6 I looked at other moves.

    6.Qc2 seems to transpose to a Nimzo and there were a lot of draws. After 6...h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.e3 O-O 9.a3 Bxc3 10.Qxc3 Re8 either Black played ...Re8, ...dxc4 and ...e5 and all the pieces were traded off to a bishop endgame or White captured on d5 before this happened and there were a lot of drawn queen's gambit exchange endgames. I'm guessing 6.Qb3 does the same thing. 

    And after 6.e3 h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 it looks like most of those positions are Nimzo-Indian too. The odd thing is that none of the positions I saw were actually ones from Chigorin's defence.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #6

    TwoMove

    6pxp pxp 7e3 h6 8Bh4 is a Ragozin where black has voluntered nc6, without white misplacing queen. These and similar, without pxp, are definitely inferior to known Ragozin positions.

    The rubinstein nimzo with nc6 is harder to play for black than usual ones too.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #7

    Snowyqueen

    TitanCG wrote:

    Is it possible to play Nc6 and get into queen's gambit positions? I saw a game in Chigorin's defence in which Black seemed to play this way and get a normal position.

    Is it possible? Sure. Lots of things are possible.

    But what tends to happen is that, unless you time your counterplay very precisely, you tend to end up in a cramped and uncomfortable position which, practically, can be very hard to play. 

    What's your objective? Do you understand why black usually doesn't block his c-pawn with his N in the QGD?

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #8

    TitanCG

    Yeah I'm sure this isn't the best way for Black to play these positions. The possibility of possible transpositions looked interesting. I'm also curious about 4.a3. It looks slow but I don't think Black can do much about it.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #9

    ThrillerFan

    1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 is bad for Black.  The point of 2...Nc6 is to put pressure on d4.  To do this, you need to play 3...Bg4 (3...e5 is another idea similar to the Albin Countergambit, but it's unsound) before playing e6.  Playing 3...e6, in essence, is mixing lines.  If you play e6 without getting the Bishop out first, and also play Nc6, you will end up with a horrible game.  White has a space advantage as it is in the Orthodox QGD, but to block the possibility of c6 or c5 for Black makes matters even worse.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #10

    DrSpudnik

    You'll already be cramped as Black in the QG. Why make it worse by blocking your c-pawn from either aiding the d-pawn with c6 or hitting White's d-pawn with c5?

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #11

    Validior

    Morozevich used to play it a lot and Ivanchuk beat Carlsen with it lol. Carlsen drew Kramnik with it. It must have some value as long as you understand it

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #12

    DrSpudnik

    Validior wrote:

    Morozevich used to play it a lot and Ivanchuk beat Carlsen with it lol. Carlsen drew Kramnik with it. It must have some value as long as you understand it

    Oh, one of those arguments.

    Every weird line gets this treatment in the forums. Most chess players are duffs who barely know what's going on in a position. Playing antipositional stuff like Nc6 in the QG is only asking for trouble.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #13

    Snowyqueen

    DrSpudnik wrote:

    Every weird line gets this treatment in the forums. Most chess players are duffs who barely know what's going on in a position. Playing antipositional stuff like Nc6 in the QG is only asking for trouble.

    EXACTLY!

    Miles beat Karpov with 1. ... a6. Doesn't mean it's a good move. 

    Pretty much every obscure line you can think of has been played by a strong player at one time or another. The fundamentals are the fundamentals for a reason. 

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #14

    Validior

    DrSpudnik wrote:
    Validior wrote:

    Morozevich used to play it a lot and Ivanchuk beat Carlsen with it lol. Carlsen drew Kramnik with it. It must have some value as long as you understand it

    Oh, one of those arguments.

    Every weird line gets this treatment in the forums. Most chess players are duffs who barely know what's going on in a position. Playing antipositional stuff like Nc6 in the QG is only asking for trouble.

    yeah, but by your reasoning MOST chess players shouldnt play Ruy or Sicilian since they are duffs who barely know whats going on.

     

    If top 10 guys are playing it, you cant really say it sux

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #15

    DrSpudnik

    If you can't find your way through strange woods, you may as well stick to well worn paths than crawling over thick brush.

  • 11 months ago · Quote · #16

    TitanCG

    Ok I think we've established that ...Nc6 isn't fundamentally sound. However I'm not seeing these positions where Black is losing horribly when playing this way as supposed to playing Chigorin mainlines or some other opening. Apart from 6.cxd5 and Bh4 ideas that I didn't look at, a lot of those games seemed to be decided tactically. Here are two games.



  • 11 months ago · Quote · #17

    TitanCG

  • 9 months ago · Quote · #18

    TitanCG

    I've gotten this position twice now so I thought I'd post.



  • 9 months ago · Quote · #19

    SmyslovFan

    DrSpudnik wrote:
    Validior wrote:

    Morozevich used to play it a lot and Ivanchuk beat Carlsen with it lol. Carlsen drew Kramnik with it. It must have some value as long as you understand it

    Oh, one of those arguments.

    Every weird line gets this treatment in the forums. Most chess players are duffs who barely know what's going on in a position. Playing antipositional stuff like Nc6 in the QG is only asking for trouble.

    In this case, the Chigorin is one of the more respectable of the "busted" lines. Karpov was unable to prove an advantage, even in analysis. Vasily Smyslov played it a bit because he liked the minor piece endgames that arose. Morozevich found some amazing tactical ideas. He knew it wasn't objectively best, but he also knew it was good enough to play repeatedly against the likes of Karpov! 

    The Chigorin is actually quite an interesting choice for intermediate players because it involves concrete play with easy development for the minor pieces at no material cost in most lines. (There are also gambit lines for Black to choose from too.)

    So yes, "one of those arguments". This is a playable offbeat line that is vastly underestimated. 


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