I can't find a refutation for Black in following line. I looked in the database and didn't find any games with that white move. I also tried with CM but he always take the bishop and then I lose because I can't find right line to play.

What did you play after he took the Bishop? The White Queen is probably the best defender of the white castled position in the Marshall and taking the bishop leaves the King bare. The forcing lines ...Qxh2, Kf1, Qh1+ Ke2, R (any) e8+ and to be followed by the RxB and again Re8+ looks nice to me. Or did he come up with something I can't see. Can you post the moves for the game?

15...Qxh2  16.Kf1 Qh1+ 17.Ke2 Rae8+ 18.Be3 Nxe3 19.Rxh1 Nxf5+

My computer gives black a slight advantage after this. 

thanks for the line.

My try was 15. ... Qxh2+ 16. Kf1 Qh1+ 17. Ke2 Rae8+ 18. Be3 and here I tried moves 18. ... Rxe3+, 18. ... Nf4+ and 18. ... Qxg2 but none of this lines was good for Black.

After 18. ...  Nxe3  and exchange of queens material is even and Black do have better development and control of e file so maybe this is the right line. Thanks pvmike. If anybody has anything to add I would be grateful. 

But White can play better in pvmike's line: 15. ... Qxh2+ 16. Kf1 Qh1+ 17. Be3 Rae8 18. Be3 Nxe3 19. Qxf7+ Rxf7 20. Bxf7+ Kxf7 21. Rxh1 Nc2+ 22. Kd2 Nxa1 23. Rxh7. thing is that black knight is trapped and sooner or later White will play Rh1-Na3-Rxa1, leaving White with plus in material. Can anybody with Fritz check this line?

I didn't check it with a computer, sorry. My reason for the exchange sac was to get the other rook into play before White can get reinforcements.

Earlengray wrote: But White can play better in pvmike's line: 15. ... Qxh2+ 16. Kf1 Qh1+ 17. Be3 Rae8 18. Be3 Nxe3 19. Qxf7+ Rxf7 20. Bxf7+ Kxf7 21. Rxh1 Nc2+ 22. Kd2 Nxa1 23. Rxh7. thing is that black knight is trapped and sooner or later White will play Rh1-Na3-Rxa1, leaving White with plus in material. Can anybody with Fritz check this line?

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 23.Rxh7? Bf4+ 24.Kd1 Bh6 25.Nd2 Kg6 and white loses his rook

Black has a forced draw at least. The easiest way looks to be Qh2+ Kf1 Rae8 Re8 Re8 Be3 and now Re3 would be good if it was'nt for blacks back rank so instead Ne3+ fe3 Qh1+ Ke2 Re3+ looks to force perpetual as acceptance of the rook is forced otherwise white is mated ,so Ke3 and black can just keep checking with the queen.
pinkerton's idea of Qh2+ Kf1 Qh1+ Ke2 Rae8+ Be3 Re3+ looks dubious as after fe3 how can black follow up the attack? After Qg2+ Qf2 I don't see what black can do as the passed h and g pawns look far to slow and easy to stop to make up for the rook.
The only attempt to try for a win for me looks to be to go for the a1 rook although this also looks drawish. eg. Qh2+ Kf1 Rae8 Re8 Re8 Be3 Qh1+ Ke2 g6 Qf3 Qc1 and blacks weaknesses of the loose d6 bishop and weak f7 square mean its difficult to get the rook as white can now play Bd5 cd5 (Qb2+ then simply Nd2 and the rook escapes and black is down material) Qd5 Bf4 (again Qb2+ Nd2 and the hanging bishop on d6 means white is doing well)  Nd2 Qa1 Ne4 Re4 and now either side can force a perpetual as after say Qe4 Be3 Ke3 Qb2 the queen ending looks drawn as perhaps black is better so white should keep checking with another perpetual.
This is one of the main problems with the Marshall at any level other than GM. If white wants a draw there are many ways of doing so. Since at the top level a draw with white is not such a great result, any lines and variations which allow black to force a draw are dicarded. So the reason that g3 is the main move in the position is not that Qf5 is an instantly losing move due to some crazy tactic, but that it allows black a draw so g3 is the only move that allows white to play for more.

Throw the board up in the air; when the opponent is looking at the pieces, jump on him.  This move usually works.

On a serious note, am I the only person on chess.com that doesn't use steroids or computer programs to help me with my games?

Human analysis as well as computer analysis is not steroids

thanks for posts on subject. I like the Marshall and would like to learn more about it. I agree that on high class level dread is not the right word to describe it, but on our level White has every right to be uncomfortable. It is easy to slip if you don't know what are you doing. Also I noticed one thing, computers ( I have chessmaster 8000 software) suck in this opening. I let comp to play Marshall against itself with Black "player" 200-300  points higher than White, and still Black usually lost the game. My conclusion was (maybe I'm wrong) that for playing Marshall one must be more of good positional player than tactical. Weak positional understanding of CM is only thing what I can think could be a reason that he can't get much out of the position. "He" thinks too  materialistic.  That is also the reason why it always took the bishop in variation above.

is there anything i missed in this line?  black would get back the sacrificed rook and leave white with a poor position.

6.Qf2 is better for white

Here's the refutation you're looking for.

 

Gonnosuke- When the rook takes the queen black does appear to be better but after 18...Nxe3  can't white just play 19 fe3 instead like I stated earlier? After ...Qg2+ 20 Qf2 I can't see anyway black can make up for the material deficit, or maybe I am missing something?

darthmalz wrote:

Throw the board up in the air; when the opponent is looking at the pieces, jump on him.  This move usually works.

On a serious note, am I the only person on chess.com that doesn't use steroids or computer programs to help me with my games?

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I don't use computer analysis either.  This is mainly because I don't have any programs to help me analyze.  There's nothing wrong with analyzing games you've played once they're through.  If, in baseball, you kept striking out, wouldn't you seek help on what you're doing wrong from the coach?

Amnesiac wrote: Gonnosuke- When the rook takes the queen black does appear to be better but after 18...Nxe3  can't white just play 19 fe3 instead like I stated earlier? After ...Qg2+ 20 Qf2 I can't see anyway black can make up for the material deficit, or maybe I am missing something?

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 19.fxe3 Rxe3+ 20.Kxe3 Qxe1+, and white is lost.

15...Qxh2 16. Kf1 Rae8 17. Rxe8 Rxe8 18. Be3 Qh1+ 19. Ke2 g6 20. Qf3 Qc1 (threatening 21...Qxb2)21. Bxd5 cxd5 22. Qxd5 Bf8

The idea of Bf8 is to play Bh6. From here you've just got an aggresive game.

If 17.Be3 Nf4

If 20.Qd7 Rxe3 21. fxe3 Qxg2-mating...check it out yourself

Have fun

Refutation? I don't see that, In the Gonnosuke line. At the end of it all, BL might have a pull from the weakness of d2, still its opposite color Bishops. And if WT plays 24.Nxd6 Bxd6 25.axb5 that is definately a draw at best for BL. I didnt look to see if WT might try to win it there. 

If I were playing BL and WT had just played his d3, I believe I would try to play it the same as if he had just played d4. Then after Qh4 g3 Qh3 etc. The WT Queen cannot access f1 via Qd3 as in the ages old d4 line. So we know he will be trying to get in Qf3 at some point, where it is then generally attacked by Bg4, Qg2 Qh5. Vs Qf3 lines BL has commonly played the ...f5 advance. Except for That, Qf3 would be a fantastic idea in the d4 lines.  

pvmike wrote: Amnesiac wrote: Gonnosuke- When the rook takes the queen black does appear to be better but after 18...Nxe3  can't white just play 19 fe3 instead like I stated earlier? After ...Qg2+ 20 Qf2 I can't see anyway black can make up for the material deficit, or maybe I am missing something?

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 19.fxe3 Rxe3+ 20.Kxe3 Qxe1+, and white is lost.

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I mentioned that line earlier but I thought it was only good enough for a perpetual. As long as the white king dos'nt go anywhere stupid I can't see how white can be mated and otherwise white is just up material?