You mean 19.fxe3? If white makes 19.fxe3 then it's game over for white if black responds 19...Rxe3+ which leads to Kxe3 Qxe1+ Kd4 Qg1+ and so on. Blacks wins easily from that point.
Refutation? I don't see that, In the Gonnosuke line.
The original poster asked for help because he was losing the game after the white queen took his bishop on f5. The line that I suggested all but guarantee's a draw because it allows black to completely equalize. In my mind, changing the outcome from a loss to a draw is a refutation because from white's perspective a draw is a negative result. What had previously been a winning move for white is no longer a winning a move for white and is instead a move that brings about a negative result. From black's perspective, any time he doesn't lose the game that's considered to be a respectable result.
-Gonnosuke
Just to extend out Johnny's interesting line, I looked at it after 5...Qxg2+ and 6.Qf2(per PVMIKE) to see about 6...Nf4+ so 7.exf4 Re8+ 8.Kd1 Qxf2 9.Re8+ Bf8 10.Nd2 should be sufficient, using Re1 if a Q check, & WT looks good with material edge ... unless maybe BL could roll his K-side pawns successfully!? It's a long way to Tippererri, but the f-pawn should fall too, and WT needs development desperately ... Any opinions on rolling the pawns in? I cannot see that far tonight~!
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Back to the Gonnosuke line, just for some more thoughts. Doesn't BL win with 16...Rae8 IF-->17.Be3? Nf5 threatening both 18.Qxg2# & 18.Qh1# ....? Then if 18.Bxf4 Qh1# or if 18.f3 Qxg2# . I think that looks SO good. BUT (of course, a "but") ...
the problem being; going back to 16...Rae8 17.Rxe8 Rxe8 18.Be3 & now BL cannot play Nf4 due to 19.Qxf7+ Kh8 20.Qxe8+ Bf8 21.Qf8# . [So I was looking for ways to displace the WT Q and came up with 16...g6, still after 17.Qd7 it is still aimed at f7 and the Bd6 as well. But not 17.Qf3? it would seem, or the eventual Nf4 shields f7 when it is made. So at the moment am looking at lines with the 17.Qd7 Rad8. Also 17...Bf4 there. OOPS 16...g6 17.Qh3 looks rather troublesome. SO scrap all of THAT] BAck to:
16...Rae8 17.Rxe8 Rxe8 18.Be3 Re5 19.Qc8+ Bf8 wait 19.Qh3 again is good nuff. Lot of big sighs here. This is the kind of night you have trying to out analyse the Fritz family!!
Big thanks to all that post their ideas.
So far I see that there are two lines that Black can try.
Here is second line:
d3 line is critical line nowdays (for high level chess) and idea is that white can put his rook on e4-h4, so black queen is not safe on h3, as it is in d4 lines. So black will need to play something like g5 to control h4 square, which weakens his king. So, I think that d3 is definately not the weakest response for White, here are statistics:
Marshall (position after 8. ... d5) White wins 30.7 % and Black 40.6% of games
position after 12. d4 - White wins 29.9 %, draw 28.2 %, Black wins 41.9 %
position after 12. Re1 - White wins 23.7 %, draw 42.1 %, Black wins 34.2 %
position after 12. d3 - White wins 30.6 %, draw 43.3 %, Black wins 26.1 %
I know that statistics can be something misleading, but it is hardly that d3 is the weakest move in position.
As for that g3 is better than queen takes bishop on f5, I agree. In fact I didn't find any game where White took on f5. But I was interested to find why, and when I failed to find it in my games against Chessmaster I posted the question here.
am I the only person on chess.com that doesn't use steroids or computer programs to help me with my games?
Having a modern chess computer program is having a grandmaster on 24hr call to help spot and explain the tactical underpinnings of any particular position. It's an awesome learning tool when used intelligently. Using the computer during games is cheating... but otherwise you are crazy not to take advantage of it, IMHO. It's not just chess.com...I believe that virtually all serious active chess players, use computers in their training and analysis.
I agree.
To the person who said that statistics can be misleading -- I generally agree with that statement although in this case, I don't think they are at all misleading. The fact is that the Marshall Gambit is one of very few openings in which black has better winning chances than white. From my own experience, I don't personally feel like I have the chess skills to take maximum advantage of the possibilities available to black however if I'm playing someone rated much higher I do feel confident that I steer the game towards a draw and will often try to do so lest I lose the game outright.
The Marshall is a beautiful, interesting opening in my opinion.
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