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Ok, these may be some dumb questions, but I havnt played much of the QGD before.1)Why is the exchange variation so feared and considered critical?2)Apparently you can avoid it after 1.d4 nf6 2.c4 e6 3.nf3 d5 but I dont understand how, cant white still just exchange?I could find any exact answers to these after a google search, all the answers seemed somewhat vague.
QGD Exchange Var is a pain for Black IMHO because White can launch a "minority attack" on the Q-side without making any concessions there or anyplace else on the bd, and Black is liable to end up with a backward c-pawn on a semi-open file (semi-open for White not Black that is)
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 N8-d7 5.cd5 ed5 is optimal for White because Black's QB is hemmed in by the QN. Of course White can exchange whenever he/she feels like it but if the Black QB isn't hemmed in by Nd7 Black is better off than in the line I give above.
Since your'e a diamond member go to the video library and look up QGD videos and most likely you may find one or more on this exact line.
PS: Do you plan on playing this as White or defending as Black? You might get better answers if you make this minor pt clear.
Thanks for the reply,I was intending it from the black side, though I was considering combining QGD with a nimzo, which apparently 'avoids' or at least makes it more favourable for black. The hemming in makes sense, however in the nimzo move order nf6-e6-d5 this doesnt happen, so im wondering why it isnt so good for white.
1)Why is the exchange variation so feared and considered critical?2)Apparently you can avoid it after 1.d4 nf6 2.c4 e6 3.nf3 d5 but I dont understand how, cant white still just exchange?
1) Largely because Black has no clue about meeting it properly.
2) The Exchange variation has very little punch after an early Nf3, as Black can successfully deploy the c8 bishop. It also allows Black playing the Ragozin, but this is a different beast.
What nimzo move order? Spell it out move by move. BTW I recommend you learn QGD and/or QGA ahead of any single QP openings, based on my own dim "authority" and also on something posted by estragon, a very strong and knowledgable player here.
You can't avoid every single permutation of a QGD exchange var as Black no matter what you do but if you're that worried about (and maybe you should be, it's a grim line for Black IMHO) just play 4...Be7 and start learning either the Orthodox, Lasker or Tartakower Defense. OR start playing the QGA or a Slav Defense.
Thanks pfren@nimzo, what I mean was 1.d4 nf6 2.c4 e6 now if Nc3, nimzo, if Nf3, QGD. I had seen a few comments alluding to this move order being a deterent of the exchange variation, but they didnt really elaborate on this.
IMO there's not much to be feared in the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 move order as well. Both 3...Be7 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bf4 c6 and 3...Nf6 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 c6 are OK for Black, but he must understand what he's aiming at. In general, I think 3...Nf6 is simpler/ easier to handle, although less ambitious than 3...Be7.
alright, thanks, I think ill take 3..nf6 and head for a lasker if possible
WHat are the plans for black in this set up?
What are the plans for black in this setup?
I am a semi slav player preffering the ...2 e6 move order for black in order to avoid the slav exchange.
I have three options
1.Learn the line above(QGD Charousek variation)
2.Employ the pure slav move order with ..2. c6? and just face the slav exchange?
3.Face the Carlsbad set up with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6
What is wrong with 2...e6 and 3...c6 if you are a semi-slav player?
Sure enough you have to memorize some theory in the Marshall Gambit, but currently white has not proved any advantage.
I just dont prefer Marshall gambit.It's too much theory based
Yes, it has quite a bit of theory, and since the resulting positions are sharp, memorizing lines is necessary.
Can white force some drawing lines in the Marshall gambit?If not,I might consider adopting it.But I heard black really needs to memorize more than white?And i think it's more dangerous for black.White makes a mistake and you still have to grind out the winning moves.Black makes a mistake and his king might get the death sentence
white cant really force it into drawing lines, although i never faced it often, so most of 'the triangle system' marshall section was left unread by me.So maybe there are a few endgamish lines, but i thin youd be pretty safe, besides its rarely played at my level, and those people dont seem to know much anyway.
whats your rating btw, because it may be a different story for you
yes,yes the exchange var is to be feared but the strategy and tactics is way to much to go into detail about right now,maybe layer,cheers U-b ...but i can say that its not the normal simple straight Q-side minority...chess is more complex than that now
Im not rated but Im not really a beginner.I havent played here.I just want the forums in here.I just enjoy improving my game
ok, well my guess is youll almost never meet the marshall, and if you do they wont follow mainline for more than 4 moves, so its not a big deal.
The noteboom move order is extremely common in my area, so I've gotten to try out a lot of ideas against it. I played the marshall gambit line as white a few times but found it was just never to my taste. It seems like white is playing almost entirely off of memorized computer lines to hold an edge. As long as black understands the position well enough to defend aginast white's initial mating threats (such as the plan of playing f6 and marching the kingout via f7), then white seldom has enough for the pawn or two he spent for the attack.
The main line of the noteboom is also quite respected/feared, so QG players will often have something prepared to avoid it.
Another consideration you should have is wheather you are prepared to face a Catalan. The anti-noteboom lines are slightly different than a Catalan proper, but still quite likely to transpose. If white plays the catalan even half way decently he can really keep things in a two result (win/draw) scenario. Personally I'd rather be on the black side of an Exchange Slav than the black side of a Catalan.
One last major consideration-
A semi-slav player can read one chapter in one book and get ideas about the exchange slav. Preparing against a variety of QGD plans and Catalan plans is going to be almost an entire new black repertoire.
I suspect Black players of the QG love playing v. The Exchange as it solves the problem of the Queen Bishop's development. I think long ago (before engine use) the OGD exchange needed to be feared but today is mostly a paper lion. Even the Nge2 line seems to be able to be diffused and White has to outplay the opponent from an equal middlegame with guile and sagacity instead of relying upon real positional trumps.
The whole point of the exchange is that the bishop still can't develop to a good square due to tactical issues. The short variation if white doesn't go for the early Qc2 is the exception but I wouldn't expect to see it at club level.
The QGD exchange is still well enough repsected at GM level. Computers evaluate many of the positions as about equal because they just don't understand the game. The reality is that not only is white better positionally but black is extremely passive, with no good pawn breaks available until white makes a mistake.
To anyone interested in the QGD, there is a new group! http://www.chess.com/groups/home/queens-gambit-declined-defenders
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