We have all played them ; those not-so-bright persons who for some reason decide that copying whites moves will somehow give them an advantage. When playing king-pawn openings, here's what I believe is the best way to turn them back and early on gain a sizeable and possibly decisive advantage for white

It doesn't really matter what happens after this for black, but it could mate with your 6.Qe4 ...Nh6??  7.Bc4# he wouldn't capture the Queen if he's a copycat who forgets how Rooks move.

4... Nxf2 if black really wanted to copy.

besides that, if white simply plays 4.Qe2 he comes out a piece ahead or a queen for a minor, either way instead of just going with the copycat thing, just develop normally, follow the logical principles, and soon you will realize how bad black's position becomes if he/she continues to copy.

whatch this!

xbigboy wrote: whatch this!

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 I'd prefer 4. Qxh4

 Puts him in a rough position that you should be able to capitalize on pretty quickly.

Also, 10. Qf8#  (you can play this for several moves)

Just find a useful check move to play, then your opponent will not be able to continue to copy.

Quote..."We have all played them ; those not-so-bright persons who for some reason decide that copying whites moves will somehow give them an advantage.???"

 I think that perhaps roshak12345 might be refering to a game i had with him

 Well he roshack12345 enjoyed it so much that he came back for additional games....as for the not so bright comment???? steady!!!....as you only just beat me...I beg to differ! Sounds LIKE that some play fun...!!! some gain experience through trying things, feeling its ok to experiment and increase their stratergies as its a game of tatics I thought?? and some cant deal with beginners making a tough game! who really cares" OMG. Just remember its a game and should be fun and we all start somewhere!!....therefore theres no need for those types of comments....

 

xbigboy wrote: It doesn't really matter what happens after this for black, but it could mate with your 6.Qe4 ...Nh6??  7.Bc4# he wouldn't capture the Queen if he's a copycat who forgets how Rooks move.

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If I read the first game correctly, after 6.Qe4, Black can simply take the Queen. Or am I missing something?

"We have all played them ; those not-so-bright persons who for some reason decide that copying whites moves will somehow give them an advantage."

 

Copying White when all you need is a draw is a fine strategy employed by many masters. The trick is knowing the right moment to stop copying! In your game, Black should have played 3...d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 with a good game to follow.

 

erad1288 wrote: besides that, if white simply plays 4.Qe2 he comes out a piece ahead or a queen for a minor, either way instead of just going with the copycat thing, just develop normally, follow the logical principles, and soon you will realize how bad black's position becomes if he/she continues to copy.

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This is the best way to prevent a copycat.  It's also a neat trick in the Petroff, although it would involve your opponent playing 2. Nf6 which one would hope means that black has some remote idea of how to play from there.

 

benws wrote: xbigboy wrote: whatch this!

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 why doesn't he take the queen on move 12??

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 Man, that was painful to whatch, such a comedy of errors, every move worse than the next! I'm telling you. You will find comprehensive coverage of the topic how to thwart copycats (a dangerous breed, and not to be toyed with), in my modern chess masterpiece recently self-published and posted for sale at the hilarious website put up by my humorous older brother, unorthodoxchess.com.

My analytical comments are as follows: In the first sample game in this thread Black's first mistake was 3... Ne4?, and the "correct" move in this opening is in reality 3... Qe7! and not the time-honored "book" move 3... d6?! which is weak and refuted soundly and in depth in the first chapter of my book covering the White side of the standard openings (before delving into the unorthodox openings in the following chapters), by Cochrane's Sacrifice, 4.Nf7! Kf7 5.d4 (Bronstein's move - the main point being that White wins a decisive advantage if Black falls for 5... Ne4? by 6.Qh5+).

But after Black's mistake 3... Ne4? in game 1 of this thread, White's correct reply is 4.Qe2 although with precise play Black can still almost hold. (All this is covered in E.C.O., and also in my book of course.) After White's dubious but interesting sacrifice in the above game 4.Nf7?!?, Black simply wins a piece with the reply: 4... Qe7!, because White can't take Black's Rook by 5.Nh8? without losing his Queen to the reply 5... Nc3+!! So White goes instead 5.Qe2 perhaps, and drops a piece to Kf7. Black wins. Here also 4... Qh4 or 4... Qf6 are interesting tries for Black. 4... Nf2?! for the sake of maintaining symmetry, may indeed be playable for Black, but certainly not winning like 4... Qe7. But after 4... Kf7?! 5.Qf3+? is a mistake because Black is stitting pretty after his reply given in the game, 5... Nf6, with a secure Piece for a Pawn. He merely needs to develop cautiously and safeguard his King, and the win is a matter of technique. Instead White has a better attack here with 5.Qh5+!, which is the same position as in Bronstein's line of Cochrane's Sacrifice only without the Pawn move to d4 yet played for White (or d6 by Black), although the position is still at least as decisive for him; and at any rate he gets to win back his Knight (like he doesn't after 5.Qf3+?), because Black cannot save it - 5... Kg8?? 6.Qd5#, or 5... Ke7? 6.Qe5+! Kf7 7.Bc4+ Kg6 8.Qe4+ Kf6 9.Qf4+ Kg6 10.Bf7#, or 5... Kf6 (best?) 6.Qh4+ Ng5 7.f4 etc., or 5... Ke6?! 6.Qg4+!, and the fun starts... if Black wants to save his Knight, his King has to come to the rescue! 6... Ke5!? 7.d4+! Kd4 8.Qf5!!, and who's going to rescue the King? (from the threat of 9.Be3#) e.g. 8... Bb4+ 9.c3+ Bc3+ 10.bc+ Nc3 11.Be3#

In game #2 of this thread, which I can't whatch, Black dropped his Queen on move 3 to 4.Qxh4. Black's correct move here was 3... Qe7, defending both his attacked Pawns, to be followed by Nf6 with gain of tempo. We need look no further into this mess... the remainder of the game is simply an apalling comedy of errors, with hanging Queens and mates in 1 being overlooked or disregarded move after move.

seriously, who actually copies their opponents?

savy_swede wrote: seriously, who actually copies their opponents?

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 I refer you to post #10 of this thread. Copycats can be dangerous because they threaten to copy your good opening moves, thus saving themselves a bit of thinking perhaps, until you make a dubious move - and then try to seize the advantage by dint of a superior reply. So it's another legitimate concern any serious chess player has to contend with, especially when adopting a defensive opening system; and my new book at unorthodoxchess.com delves into the theory of how to handle copycats with a heretofore unprecedented depth of profundity.