Hey guys, I have been staring at this opening for a while, but I want to see if anyone has any good feedback on it -

Hi BirdBrain. In Andrew Martin's DVD "Scandinavian - The easy way", Martin recommends 3... Qd6. His general setup is to play Nf6, a6, b5, Bb7, Nbd7, e6, Qb6, Be7/Bd6, O-O and finally c7-c5. He employs these moves, roughly in this order, against almost all white variations, and concludes that black is ok in all of the lines. Although black is probably fine in most variations against average players, it's not perfect though, and there are some variations white can play which give black a hard time equalizing.

But I think that if you follow that system, you'll get easy development and easy equality in most of your games.  

I will definetely give your ideas a shot!  I have been itching to try this line, and I thought for sure Black would play for a quick 0-0-0, but maybe I am being too ambitious.  I'll give it a go! Thanks for your help.

I did play the Scandinavian last night, but he refused to take the pawn - he played e5.  So I played c5, and he played c4, so we went into a weird benoni-like game.  I played d4 d3 Bf5 g3 Nd7 Bh3? Bxh3 Nxh3 Nxe5 Qh5 Qc7 Bf4? (what an opening experiment lol) Nxd3+ Kf1 Nxf4 Nxf4 e5...anyway, I will try to post my scandinavian experiments in here and get some feedback.  We both had connected passed pawns - you had to see it to understand...but I had pawns on d2 and c2, and I sacked my bishop on b4 to gain a queen, and he tried for a petite trap that I didn't fall for, and finally I forked his king and the passed e-pawn with my queen.  I will post it later when I get a chance...15 minute game- nothing special, but it was definetely fun!  I love those passed pawns, you can sacrifice pieces for positional advantages and still be winning.

And if anyone else has any Scandinavians they would like to post, I would love to see them.

I was under the impression that 3...Qa5 is the most common.  The queen is active and relatively safe.

Qa5 is the most common.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheesehat, thank you for your suggestions.  The first line seems most plausible, yet rather passive for Black, playing a line to simply retreat back to d8, yet I am not experienced in these lines. 

The second line, it seems instead of going straight into a French (otherwise I would play 1...e6, which I have seriously considered as well) that it would be good to go straight for 2...c5 or 2...Bf5 so that the bishop has some breathing room before ...e6.  And I would definetely be ready to run to d7 with the king, as I would think White could whip up a quick kingside attack.  Maybe crippling the pawn structure later would be better?  Any ideas here?

 The third line, it seems risky to me from Black's side, to begin attacking with the queen and the queenside pawns and ignoring development.  I wouldn't play that line unless I had a trap set up.  Here is a diagram of a basic setup that Phobetor advocated.  I know that Qa5 is the main line of the Scandinavian, and I am sure that it has great principles as well.  Maybe we can look at some playable lines from Black's side also.

The problem with the Bronstien variation is BECAUSE there is little on the opening moves can be hard to find. Here is a match from the top two in my local chess club (rating wise) with two different scandanavian defenses.  (it was friendly, theyw ere talking, I doubt the moves were best)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BirdBrain wrote:

I did play the Scandinavian last night, but he refused to take the pawn - he played e5.  So I played c5, and he played c4, so we went into a weird benoni-like game.

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 I would have played e6 than, French sharp lines are very funny.

About the line with Dd6, I know one who plays it, and with good succes. Its also good for avoiding some gambits against Da5, like 4. b4?!

2. Nf6 is probably the most challenging for White

cheesehat

You just showed a game with the French Defense (2nd game), and in that variation, f6 is not good at all. Better to get some development.

<BirdBrain> There are strong players that play this opening a bit, some having OTB ratings of 2500+. Chess.com Member Eric Schiller also plays the opening.

<Cheesehat>  Your games are misleading...

Game 1

Passive play by white allows black an easy game. What!?

Game 2

The French advance does not lead to an advantage for black (the ending position looks to be equal.) Its easy to achieve equality (at least in comparison to other french lines), but definitely does not lead to an advantage. If you disagree, then I implore you to find solid "evidence" to support your point.

2...c5 or 2...Bf5 is most definitely an improvement; getting rid of the french main weakness: the trapped light-squared bishop.

Game 3

Black's plan is destructive; ignoring development to...actually, I have no clue. The notes at black's 9th and white's 11th contradict themselves comically, and this game does not help 3...Qd6's case. This game is a crude way to prove your preference of Qa5 over Qd6, and does not give 3...Qd6 its due.

 

 

Well, you see, I don't have much experience in these lines...so I appreciate a lot of help- when I look at these lines, I am at work on a sales call (lol) so I have to admit, I don't see as clearly as now, when I am at the library...so if Black's plan in game 1 was "good" that is good...the position looks playable, but like you said, White hasn't posed any imminent threats to Black.  It seems the idea behind Qxd5-a5-d8 seems like a lot of moves...I would almost rather play a Sicilian then and combat the d pawn with my c-pawn, but that is okay, it's up for grabs.  Once again, thanks for all input, this not only helps me, but others who are curious about 1...d5 against 1. e4.

Those first three games were my bad examples that I just took out of a random book I found lying on the ground. I'm actually used to playing the French and find advance variations easy for me to handle, so my instincts took me to that second weak pawn move.

 

The plan in Qa5 is not for the Queen to retreat to d8, otherwise it wouldn't go to d5 anyway. It just has the POTENTIAL to go to d8, and the only way for it to do that is if the white pieces make a few cheap threats that can easily be repelled with a better game to black.

 

Look at the two games I posted later. Those are probably more accurate as they were played by real people, not a random variation a book made up to prove that white/black is better.

 

Passive play by white DOES allow white an easy game.

 

All the opening books I have read (I shouldn't be reading them, but meh) have given 3. Nf6 as the main move, and did not even consider Bf5, c6, Nd7. They just gave obscure lines that give white an advantage. The main example is Chess Openings for white, Explained, written by two well known GMs and an IM (The names I can't quite remember, I don't read it anymore) and they sidestep the best line for black in the opening. Because of this I can see that they are more dreamers than actually refuters of the Scandanavian defence.

 

And Nimzo stop taking everything out on me I don't think you even commented on the real games played because they showed black doing something worthwhile :)

 

No seriously.

 

 

 

Cheesehat the new games u posted, u missed 13.Nxc7 in the second game.

Im not posting the games, they come from real matches at my (crappy) chess club.

<Cheesehat> I have no qualms with the other games you posted (they're fine), so I had no reason to comment about them, but I do apologize if my post seemed offensive in any way. The first three "appeared" to me as "analysis" games with sloppy play (which, to me, is a sin in analysis), and felt some clarity was needed.

I do not carry grudges from other topics, and I hope the same goes for you.

 

No grudges :)

 

Birdbrain, if your still looking at this, I personally would recommend Qa5, but Eric Shiller has written a little (or a lot, I don't follow this much) on Qd6, one copy which I own.

Okay...if Qa5 is the best, maybe it is worth exploring.  This may sound strange, but I have experimented with the Amar, and I found a reversed Scandinavian line with a gambit that I have never got to really try in play...but the idea is that if 1. Nh3 e5, then 2. d4 exd Qxd Nc6 Qa4 with an unusual position.  Of course, I am going to now have to start a thread on the Amar :-), but if 1. Nh3 d5, which seems much better to me, then 2. g3 and I played into a reversed King's Indian style with d3 and e4 buildup, not that f4 gambit.  I will make a post on the Amar if anyone has any ideas in those positions.  Since you guys like the Scandinavian, maybe for surprise value you wouldn't mind trying the 1. Nh3 e5 2. d4 lines for fun.