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I think retreating the bishop to g3 right away with the intent of recapturing with the h pawn is sort of hope chess. White wants the rook to make an attack possible but it's just too early and black can simply develop to make the rook passé.
If you're opposed to recapturing on f4 with the e pawn then just play Ne5 (you wanted to do it anyway). After Ne5 then possibly Bg3 will make sense if you want to play f4, but if you can manage with Bg5 then it's even stronger.
Is the london system any good against the KID, grunfeld, dutch or benoni?
Or is it specifically only against 1.d4 d5 stuff?
It's ok against the KID. Not as good as the main lines, but respectable for a sideline. Depending on move order it declines the benoni, so it's a reasonable choice there if you want to avoid that. (If black races and gets c5 in before Bf4 white can't very well play a normal London, as the exchange slav may come about. However, that's a Benoni where white could play d5 without having played c4, and is considered good for white)
It's terrible against the Grunfeld where the barry attack is the most thematic idea, which is only dangerous if black doesn't know what to do.
Against the dutch it's both a reasonable choice for white and not terribly challenging for black. White is developing into central dark square control from move one which is somewhat problematic for black. However, white is pointing his bishop the wrong way to exploit black's weakened king structure. I'd probably prefer the colle-zuckertort against the dutch if I were looking to play a d4 sideline.
It is however perfect against a stonewall dutch, as is evident by the same set-up being the best choice against a stonewall attack.
Nfd2 and f3 would be my best guess. yes?
thanks for confirming my suspicions, in blitz, ive found myself doing okay against the london system with the dutch, doing OKAY with the KID against it too.
Well the KID lines with the London are simply bad for blitz. It's a race game where white has less center control then usual, and must accurately utilize his london bishop to sacrifice and promote his advanced c/b pawns. It is quite playable in tournament time control when you can calculate out the whole race.
If you're playing 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 then it's probably worth it for you to experiment with the London as white a bit. The London really shines when black plays 2...c6 or 2...Nc6, as c5 (or b6 if no d5 played) is really the key move to equalizing. If black is going to defend d5 without white having to pressure it, then skipping c4 makes a lot of sense (unless black develops his lsB, then c4 happens and black's queen side is under defended).
to all you london players .... i'm gonna be honest with you .... using the london is like using the belly putter in golf .... its kind of seen as a sissy opening, a cop out to comitting yourself to devoted chess opening study. Yes you get playable middle games but it doesn't take advantage of the blitz kreig motive of being white ...it really is easy for black to equalize if black does serious study, so if your ever interested in moving past expert level to becoming a master .... believe me .... other masters really do know what to do against it .... especially in this era with lots of internet study available .... most masters at their level are booked up against it ... for example .... kings indian defence with knight on f6 back to d7. commit yourself to the study and take advantage of being white. I'm just telling you how it really is. Anyone else agree?
forgive me but i just wanted to rant some more, as an addition to my above comment. don't don't buy into the talk about avoiding opening moves like e4 because of all the heavy theory you have to learn with ALL the different kinds of response by black. YOU are the one who chooses where to go with what black chooses, and you can make it specific and sweet. Also realize the statistics. Most of the time you will encounter c5 or e5. You can choose a response that need only take you one afternoon of study for each one, to play at expert level confidently. For example, against c5 the theme in the grand prix with bishop at b5 is quite straight forward. The bishop opening for e5 is very straight forward and that theme can be learned in one afternoon. And that covers 80 percent of the responses you will generally meet. As far as the othert responses , you can look up a conservative safe response in a few hours and confidently use it. The pirc? .... 2 hours of study and you get the basic gist of the 150 system .... a very powerful white advantage type opening. You will need about 10 hours of study to learn the kings indian attack against the french and caro khan (use the 1 Nf3 line .... very powerful, esp against the french). Thats the point .... with this you maintain that smooth natural flow of thrusting chess that being white offers you. PLUS you really need the variety to develop. you really do. the london system is a one trick pony that will stunt your chess growth. There is a very good book by John Emms called "attacking with 1e4" that highlights very good specific lines for white that are powerful yet specific enough to avoid heavy theory and the themes can be learned easily. So, i am not talking about really that many hours of devoted study to get a good grasp, but its so worth it in playing with fun as white, and developing as a player. I am a candidate master, trying to earn a few more points to become master .... so i am obviously not a great player, but i think i travelled the road abit to offer you some ideas. what do you think. please be nice .... i am sorry if i offended anyone with the sissy comment ... i get too passionate with my emotions sometimes.
unfortunately the London system is refuted by 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5! 4.e3 Nc6 5.c3?(system move but it's very dubious) 5...Qb6 and Black is at least slightly better.
Is that move order mentioned in either Johnsen and Kovacevic's or Lakdawala's London System books?
And yet I know one master in my area who plays it almost exclusively, even against other masters. Knowing how to equalize and being out of any danger are not the same thing. The King's English (1.c4 e5) is "equal" as well, yet white still has a very respectable score there, too.
It's mentioned in Lakdawala's book who complains that it's unfair that Black has this and recommends avoiding it somehow.
erictheshrink let me explain why me and i expect many others do not always use e4 though their is heavy theory behied it is a opening i played for 3 years straghit from 10 to 13 which is why i took a 2 year break from chess and now am getting back into it. playing the same opening moves each time gets boring, so whats im saying is i do use e4 but the1n again i use d4,g3,nf3,nc3,g3,b3,g4(killer grob),b4,c4 this is why. infact in one of john nuns books he adds about a frenid who did just this he used the same lines in ever games agasint his dad because thats what grandmasters said were the best moves. however i disagree with your comment about the london system being a sissy opening, opening are based on peoples style of play maybe just playing e4 works for you i don't know but it sure dones't for me
Looking at post #1 ...
(1) The central pawn structure tends to make Black's dark B better than White's dark B, so White should immediately trade on d6.
(2) f3 can be prepared at leisure to kick the N off e4.
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