Upgrade to Chess.com Premium!

this is why the dutch stonewall is inferior


  • 21 months ago · Quote · #1

    ajian

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #2

    aAquila

    I usually choose pushing e pawn instead of c pawn (it will keep supporting d5 till the end ) if white does not have a e5 knight.

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #3

    JariIkonen

    Nce4 and engine suggests equal or black slightly better? O_o

    Am i missing something here?

    and oh. 5... Bb4+ i would play as black.. sometimes. my play is so random anyway. =)

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #4

    billwall

    I usually get this opening position by transposition when I play 1.g3



  • 21 months ago · Quote · #5

    mashanator

    The Stonewall as White is much better imo, but still the g6 line is extremely annoying to play against, and opening with the four pawns out straight away (unless your opponent forces you to somehow) is a very committing move order. From White's perspective, I believe the best move order is d4-e3-Bd3-Nd2, to deny Black e4. Of course he can have it if he really wants it by playing f5 and such but the look of your pieces will usually give him the impression you are playing the much more common Colle System, and such adjust his pieces in a way that is favorable for playing against the Colle System but not the Stonewall. Use this to your advantage.

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #6

    Eidol

    Games between amateurs have no bearing on the playability or inferior or superiorness of openings. You're entitled to your opinion however!

  • 21 months ago · Quote · #7

    ajian

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #8

    ajian

    babooshka

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #9

    ajian

    Thechessorcist wrote:

    Games between amateurs have no bearing on the playability or inferior or superiorness of openings. You're entitled to your opinion however!

    Are you an amateur? I think you areUndecided

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #10

    NimzoRoy

    ajian wrote:
    Thechessorcist wrote:

    Games between amateurs have no bearing on the playability or inferior or superiorness of openings. You're entitled to your opinion however!

    Are you an amateur? I think you are

    I also think Thechessorcist is an amateur and so am I...and I still agree with him (for the most part)

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #11

    Eidol

    Yes i'm an amateur and i'm not trying to call an opening inferior after i beat it once or twice. You can find some nice games where stonewall playing GMs beat people at much much higher levels than ourselves, and in fact it is still played at the GM level albeit rarely because it has a high draw % ( i believe)

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #12

    pellik

    mashanator wrote:

    The Stonewall as White is much better imo, but still the g6 line is extremely annoying to play against, and opening with the four pawns out straight away (unless your opponent forces you to somehow) is a very committing move order. From White's perspective, I believe the best move order is d4-e3-Bd3-Nd2, to deny Black e4. Of course he can have it if he really wants it by playing f5 and such but the look of your pieces will usually give him the impression you are playing the much more common Colle System, and such adjust his pieces in a way that is favorable for playing against the Colle System but not the Stonewall. Use this to your advantage.

    I've always felt that the stonewall attack is one of the easiest openings to defend against in all of chess. Honestly I breathe a sigh of relief when I see that they are not heading into the colle where at least white's pieces can coordinate well (even if they are inherently non-threatening). 

    This is enough of an overview to break white's initial coordination and delay his attacking ideas. With the black pieces fully mobilized all that is needed to win is to push towards an endgame where you can exploit white's abysmal dark square bishop. The endgames white gets in the stonewall attack are downright miserable.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #13

    mashanator

    pellik wrote:
    mashanator wrote:

    The Stonewall as White is much better imo, but still the g6 line is extremely annoying to play against, and opening with the four pawns out straight away (unless your opponent forces you to somehow) is a very committing move order. From White's perspective, I believe the best move order is d4-e3-Bd3-Nd2, to deny Black e4. Of course he can have it if he really wants it by playing f5 and such but the look of your pieces will usually give him the impression you are playing the much more common Colle System, and such adjust his pieces in a way that is favorable for playing against the Colle System but not the Stonewall. Use this to your advantage.

    I've always felt that the stonewall attack is one of the easiest openings to defend against in all of chess. Honestly I breathe a sigh of relief when I see that they are not heading into the colle where at least white's pieces can coordinate well (even if they are inherently non-threatening). 

     

    This is enough of an overview to break white's initial coordination and delay his attacking ideas. With the black pieces fully mobilized all that is needed to win is to push towards an endgame where you can exploit white's abysmal dark square bishop. The endgames white gets in the stonewall attack are downright miserable.

    That diagram is exactly why you play Nd2 before f4, and, sure enough, Andrew Soltis gives f4 a dubious mark in his book The Stonewall Attack. Delaying f4 for as long as possible is, in mine and Soltis' preference.

    Alternatively in your variation White can simply abandon the Stonewall and take with 5. dxc5.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #14

    ThrillerFan

    The line given up top is inaccurate by Black.  He has mixed ideas.  Black can castle on move 8, but then should trade Bishops on a3.  Instead, 8...b6, gives Black more flexibility.  He can play the positional ...Bxa3 after White has wasted all that time, or he can play the higher risk higher reward ...c5 at that point.  In both cases, Black is looking for the right time to play ...f4.  The Stonewall is not all about just keeping your pawns on the central light squares.  That's where they start, but a mistake many make is this think this is a rigid pawn structure, and it's not!

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #15

    pellik

    mashanator wrote:
    pellik wrote:
    mashanator wrote:

    The Stonewall as White is much better imo, but still the g6 line is extremely annoying to play against, and opening with the four pawns out straight away (unless your opponent forces you to somehow) is a very committing move order. From White's perspective, I believe the best move order is d4-e3-Bd3-Nd2, to deny Black e4. Of course he can have it if he really wants it by playing f5 and such but the look of your pieces will usually give him the impression you are playing the much more common Colle System, and such adjust his pieces in a way that is favorable for playing against the Colle System but not the Stonewall. Use this to your advantage.

    I've always felt that the stonewall attack is one of the easiest openings to defend against in all of chess. Honestly I breathe a sigh of relief when I see that they are not heading into the colle where at least white's pieces can coordinate well (even if they are inherently non-threatening). 

     

    This is enough of an overview to break white's initial coordination and delay his attacking ideas. With the black pieces fully mobilized all that is needed to win is to push towards an endgame where you can exploit white's abysmal dark square bishop. The endgames white gets in the stonewall attack are downright miserable.

    That diagram is exactly why you play Nd2 before f4, and, sure enough, Andrew Soltis gives f4 a dubious mark in his book The Stonewall Attack. Delaying f4 for as long as possible is, in mine and Soltis' preference.

    Alternatively in your variation White can simply abandon the Stonewall and take with 5. dxc5.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #16

    mashanator

    pellik wrote:
    mashanator wrote:
    pellik wrote:
    mashanator wrote:

    The Stonewall as White is much better imo, but still the g6 line is extremely annoying to play against, and opening with the four pawns out straight away (unless your opponent forces you to somehow) is a very committing move order. From White's perspective, I believe the best move order is d4-e3-Bd3-Nd2, to deny Black e4. Of course he can have it if he really wants it by playing f5 and such but the look of your pieces will usually give him the impression you are playing the much more common Colle System, and such adjust his pieces in a way that is favorable for playing against the Colle System but not the Stonewall. Use this to your advantage.

    I've always felt that the stonewall attack is one of the easiest openings to defend against in all of chess. Honestly I breathe a sigh of relief when I see that they are not heading into the colle where at least white's pieces can coordinate well (even if they are inherently non-threatening). 

     

    This is enough of an overview to break white's initial coordination and delay his attacking ideas. With the black pieces fully mobilized all that is needed to win is to push towards an endgame where you can exploit white's abysmal dark square bishop. The endgames white gets in the stonewall attack are downright miserable.

    That diagram is exactly why you play Nd2 before f4, and, sure enough, Andrew Soltis gives f4 a dubious mark in his book The Stonewall Attack. Delaying f4 for as long as possible is, in mine and Soltis' preference.

    Alternatively in your variation White can simply abandon the Stonewall and take with 5. dxc5.

     

     

    Did you read my comment at all? 5. dxc5.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #17

    kenji12

    I thought the Nh3 systems were the reason why the stonewall is inferior, not this.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #18

    pellik

    Mashanator: You listed dxc5 as an alternative to continuing on with the stonewall, it wasn't even your main suggestion.

    5.dxc5 is a bad move. Black gets the pleasant choice between grabbing a ton of space with 5...e5 6.b4 e4 (winning a tempo on the bishop and black is just better), where he can then choose to play against the weak squares on the queen side (enough compensation for a pawn) or attack on the king side or both. Or black can just play a5 and you have a reversed slav where white has elected to play e3 and has no compensation for the center. 

    Center control is important in chess. Giving it away so that you can have an extra pawn for a few moves and try to equalize while black recaptures the pawn is stupid, since you had the first move advantage and it should be black trying to equalize. 

    If you're going to play a reverse QGA do it on move 3. But even then having already played e3 really doesn't give you the most challanging options. 

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #19

    ajian

    Thechessorcist wrote:

    Yes i'm an amateur and i'm not trying to call an opening inferior after i beat it once or twice. You can find some nice games where stonewall playing GMs beat people at much much higher levels than ourselves, and in fact it is still played at the GM level albeit rarely because it has a high draw % ( i believe)

     

    White actually has more wins than draws, which is rare in serious openings. 1...d6 and 1...e6 are more popular than 1...f5


Back to Top

Post your reply: