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What about 2...c5 against the veresov?


  • 4 years ago · Quote · #1

    Conzipe

    I have have a really hard time finding something good against 2...c5 in the veresov. Which is considered a sideline. Now I don't really have any like opening encyclopedia or opening book about the veresov to look up what your supposed to do against it, I only have some large databases to rely on. And now I'm wondering what theory recommends doing against 2...c5 because it really seems like a darn good move to me. >.<

    The variation in question:

     

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #2

    WanderingWinder

    3.e4 looks most natural to me, though I admittedly haven't calculated anything.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #3

    khpa21

    3. Bg5 maybe?

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #4

    Conzipe

    The problem I have with 3. e4 is that it just seems like black can get away with playing dxe4 when there's a threat to the d4 pawn and the natural way to deal with it would be to play dxc5 but unfortunately that can only be good for black after the queen exchange. And because the natural 4. dxc5 doesn't work I don't really see any really good alternatives for white, I have looked at ideas like grabing space with 4. d5 then recapture on e4 at a later date or just sacrifice a pawn with f3 but none of it looks especially good to me.

    There is a very similar variation where this idea works pretty well though:

     

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #5

    Conzipe

    khpa21 wrote:

    3. Bg5 maybe?


     But after black playes the semi waiting move 3...Nc6 how do I continue?

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #6

    Salaskan

    2...c5 just shows why 2.Nc3 is bad; it blocks your c-pawn for no good reason and leaves you unable to create pressure against black's d-pawn. If you insist on playing it, though, Fritz offers 3.dxc5 (threatening e4) d4 4.Ne4 Qd5 5.Ng3 e5 6.e4 Qxc5 7.Nf3 when you have a slight lead in development at the cost of space.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #7

    Conzipe

    It blocks the c-pawn for a very good reason!

    Either for getting in the break e4 or ruing blacks structure with Bxf6, I very well know the positional drawbacks of putting a knight a c3 but it really seems to work out in all lines except for this particular variation.

    However I think you might have analyzed a bit to fast there, it's kind of black to play d4 so quickly and force white's knight to a good square. I think it's more accurate to play 3...Nf6 for black and threat to play d4 next move, now that looks very unpleasant.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #8

    Conzipe

    Well, I'm not actually especially happy with either of those answers.

    1) I don't believe for a second that white has full compensation in the pawnsac line.

    2) is almost like a misplayed london system for white.

    3) Would be pretty good if black were forced to play Nf6, but I have one problem with the line...

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #9

    Conzipe

    1) well, I was actually looking at some games in the database in this line after black playes the key move 6...a6 and develops with Nbd7, g6, Bg7, 0-0 it's very hard to believe that white has any kind of compensation-

    2) I don't have a hard time imagining that some black players have had some problems with this early Bf4 move since it can be quite tricky because it prepares early Nb5 stuff which can make blacks development a bit tricky but it only seems to be a case of black finding the correct moves and white pieces will end up a bit silly.

    3) if I were to choose between the three lines this would probably be my choice since it's the most in "veresov spirit" however for a couple of reasons it seems like black has improved upon a normal veresov and if this is truly the best white can do against 2...c5 then it's definitely a very strong move (stronger than the main move 2...Nf6) which is why I was hoping for something more convincing.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #11

    Conzipe

    Catalyst_Kh wrote:

    Agreed to that line, probably best for black, but you just don't take f6 knight until h6 would be played. Develope normally with pieces, or try 6.a3 as well. You may even retreat bishop to e3(f4) later. Anyway, you have to pay something for taking Veresov and avoiding 1 and 2 optimal choices (and other as well), so that is fair price.


    I completely agree that Bxf6 shouldn't be played immediately in this particular case but I just wanted to demonstrate a general point. Usually in the veresov white wants to take on f6 as quickly as possible. However the problem I have with this line is that white is not really obligated to castle queenside and therefore has to settle for castling on the kingside and because of that the game will reach a more dull position where it seems like black has all the chances.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #12

    Conzipe

    Catalyst_Kh wrote:

    Show those game please, where white gets in trouble in 1 or 2 lines, i don't believe white played best moves the same strong, as you don't believe in those solutions.

    Also, i don't quite understand your demands. If you want an opening advantage - play another opening. Veresov played not for opening advantage, but you probably know what for much better than i am.


     I can't really show you any games since I don't have chessbase on this computer however could you show some games where white gets full compensation against this 6...a6 plan?

    I know very well that veresov is not an opening which is usually not considered to be fighting for an advantage but it's actually quite poisonous and I think modern theory is underestimating it slightly. However I know a couple of lines where black in fact equalizes but in general the white position is more comfortable in my opinion, it usually turns out to be closed type of games with opposite castling where white has the most straightforward plan. I'm fine with an equal game that is somewhat exciting but not a kind of "dead equal" position where the play is very dull an you will have a hard time pushing for an advantage.

    However this 2...c5 line seems to be very different, it's seems more like white is the one fighting for equality if he playes ambitiously, especially in that pawnsac line I think white will have an especially uphill battle objectively. And if white playes more passively it can very quickly turn into a =+ as well based on whites c3 knight being misplaced.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #13

    SchofieldKid

    Well frankly i would just play 2.c4 =)

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #14

    Conzipe

    billyjoe3125 wrote:

    Well frankly i would just play 2.c4 =)


     This is of course what I also play as my main weapon, but sometimes if your opponent is an expert on a certain opening line (especially that cursed tarrasch defense) it can be nice to have a little pet system to turn to.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #15

    Conzipe

    Not very impressed by any of those games though! ;D

    Black was a bit to greedy trying to grab a second pawn in most of the game giving white way to much freedom.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #16

    Cutebold

    These were just some random thoughts on the position concocted in an entirely exhausted state at two in the morning. It seems like on move 10, Black could play 10...a6, preventing Bb5+, since he has the active position and can begin to move his pieces into play for a Queenside attack. Hmm... I want to stare at it more now.

    EDIT: Black should probably take that pawn in the line I banged out, which seems to make the position interesting since White's second knight looks like it's in a bit of an irritating spot to develop!

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #17

    Conzipe

    Cutebold you just kinda demonstrated one of white's annoyances in that position since it's not really so easily to develop the pieces where you want them because of the pressure on the d4-pawn. After 7. Qf3 is there anyway to punish black from playing 7...Nxd4?

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #18

    Conzipe

    Catalyst_Kh wrote:
    Conzipe wrote:

    Not very impressed by any of those games though! ;D


    Okay, so you finally proved, that you found the refutation to all Veresov system. My congratulations!


     No, I clearly doubt that but all of the lines you gave seems to be very shaky in my opinion and it's played way to little to give a completely clear evaluations of the positions arising.

    It might well be that this line is in fact very good for black but it really feels like white should be able to really punish black for hes overambitious idea, which is why I was kinda disappointed seeing moves such as Bf4 and Bg5 being blacks "best" alternatives. It would be interesting hearing what veresov books recommends doing against 2...c5 because so far it just seems be a lot better than blacks main line 2...Nf6.

    However I should maybe notice that even if 2...c5 turned out to be "super-effective"  the veresov would still be playable against 1...Nf6 though when black is unable to play this line. ^^

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #19

    Cutebold

    I told you I banged out that line at 2! How am I, a mere (and awful, even for the following) class player, able to determine when I'm hanging pawns left and right or not? In all seriousness, it's a serious oversight on my part. 7.Qf3 Nxd4 8.Qd3 Nc6 9.Qxd5 Qxd5 10.Nxd5, and White's Knight tickles the c7 square, practically forcing Bd6 and giving White time to find his pieces some solid squares. Still, if the queen has to move twice in an opening, then perhaps a better 7th move (or player, to find a better variation) is in order.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #20

    Conzipe

    echecs06 wrote:

    I agree with most of the above, in any rate proper continuation would be:

    3.e4! de4

    4.d5


    I think that line is pretty bad for white though, all variations I have seen so far seems to lead to a =+ for black in that line.


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