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where can I go to learn the openings 20 moves in, in an efficient manner?


  • 20 months ago · Quote · #1

    DavidFindley

    hey,

    I was just fumbling through the openings study here on Chess.com -- I would probably purchase a premium account if I thought that the opening guides were a little more organized and coherent.

    I would like, for example, to click 'cecilian defense', and from that single page explore all main-line variations of the cecilian defense, 20 moves in, in that same window, just clicking the arrow button and watching the various opening variations play themselves out.

     

    but the opening learning tool here is somewhat disorganized, no?

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #2

    orangeishblue

    You are far too young to bother learing mainline openings. Hell I am too young to bother with mainline openings 20 moves deep. At the level of competition you face you will never play an opening that deep into theory. I can think of only a few games that I have played in my life that have even gone 15 moves deep.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #3

    DarthMusashi

    If you are starting out at chess you should not be concentrating on studying an opening line 20 moves deep. If someone plays a line that deviates from your line early you could be lost and not know what do do. 

    You should start by learning double king pawn openings first to develop your tactical ability first.  The other openings such as
    the French Defense or Sicilian may require you to know more
    about theory.

    When I first starting playing chess I was studying books on tactics
    such as 1001 checkmates and 1001 combinations. I was also studying
    books on traps to get easy wins. Traps are really tircky because
    your opponent could go wrong right in the opening. Tactics is what
    separates all the rating classes from GM down.

    You should also know your basic endgames such as B, N & K vs
    K. When I teach a beginner player I usually start by teaching
    the R&K vs K endgame and other basic endgames.  

    I also studied complete chess games by masters to fully
    understand how to play the game. You should find a
    master to emulate and play like that master. 

    I later studied books on pawn structure such as Andrew
    Soltis book called Pawn Structure and also studied
    Aron Nimzovich and his book called My System. Soltis
    had other books on various subjects like defense
    and calculation. I also studied the Euwe series on the
    middlegame.  

    For a number of years I played standad openings but later
    added some unorthodox chess openings to my opening
    repertoire.  And I developed a love for opening gambits
    and loved to attack. If you can attack then you would
    also be good at defense.

    Best Regards
    DarthMusashi

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #4

    Estragon

    Play your first 15-20 moves following the basic priniciples on this page (advice from several reputable sources).

     

    Don't worry about memorizing moves, it's a waste of time.  You will learn the names of openings as you encounter them or see others play them, don't worry about all that stuff now.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #5

    NimzoRoy

    This is a joke right? You want to learn openings 20 moves deep? Learn how to use the spell checker first. Then you can waste all the time you want to on learning openings that your opponents will never play and you'll never remember anyway.

    If the openings here aren't organized well enough for you you can always go out and buy ECO vol 1-5 (4th edition of course, unless any vol is up to the 5th edition) along with the latest and greatest DB available, all for no more than several hundred dollars. ECO alone is inadequate because many footnote moves (or moves not even in footnotes) in ECO will actually show up in hundreds of DB games

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #6

    FirebrandX

    Knowing all openings 20 moves deep would be better than any chess player that ever lived!

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #7

    royalbishop

    FirebrandX wrote:

    Knowing all openings 20 moves deep would be better than any chess player that ever lived!

    It can be done but only with a specific variation.....

    .... plus it takes months to do it.

    So say the question is it worth spending all that time?

    Maybe if your going into a tournament and your famaliar with what type of players you may come across. Maybe if it is the most popular response to your opening line. If it does not satisfy the above i have say you could better spend your time studying other things about your opening like understanding the opponents opening and what is that main line of play.

    Just stay with sound play. It was good enough for the past great GM's it is good enough for us. Even the best plans go wrong do to numerous unexpected things. What if you sick that game and hard for you remember is that Nc3 or Nf3 next move?

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #8

    FirebrandX

    royalbishop wrote:
    FirebrandX wrote:

    Knowing all openings 20 moves deep would be better than any chess player that ever lived!

    It can be done but only with a specific variation.....

    Hence why I typed "all".

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #9

    royalbishop

    FirebrandX wrote:
    royalbishop wrote:
    FirebrandX wrote:

    Knowing all openings 20 moves deep would be better than any chess player that ever lived!

    It can be done but only with a specific variation.....

    Hence why I typed "all".

    I am pretty sure he did not mean all. And sure you know that also. As it would take 9 more of him and each an entire life time. And still might lose same amount as the rest of us here.


    Relax have some Eggs, Sausage, OJ and etc.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #10

    baddogno

    Chesskingtraining.com has a standalone software title called "chess openings what you need to know".   USCF carries it  (maybe Amazon.com too) for around $30.  Allows you to step through the main lines of all the major openings (and variations as well should you so choose) with pretty good explanations of why the moves are chosen.  There are also half a dozen or so example games for each opening and ways to test yourself.  Whether you actually need such training is a seperate question....

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #11

    ekorbdal

    Don't worry about it. Just play, lose, win, draw and learn... 

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #12

    PeterWeston

    Don't bother, games that follow book moves for that long rarely occur and if they did would be boring.

    Learn tactics and stategies and play your own game, revert to the book moves when studying the games you lose to see where you went wrong

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #13

    Irontiger

    uhohspaghettio wrote:

    What age is he? If he doesn't know the Najdorf 20 moves deep by age 10 he can probably say goodbye to ever becoming a grandmaster...... not for any practical reasons, but because for great players it just comes naturally and automatically. 

    Lol. The Najdorf is full of natural-looking moves, of course.

     

    As for the "Cecilian defense", forget about it. I fully support #5.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #14

    ThrillerFan

    uhohspaghettio wrote:

    What age is he? If he doesn't know the Najdorf 20 moves deep by age 10 he can probably say goodbye to ever becoming a grandmaster...... not for any practical reasons, but because for great players it just comes naturally and automatically. 

    To him, "Najdorf" doesn't exist.  It's probably more like the "Nahdwarf" variation of the "Cecilian Defense"

    Dude - It's "Sicilian" - As in Sicily, where the name comes from, kinda like the English Opening, or Scandinavian Defense, etc, or I guess to you, that's probably "Inglich Opening", "Skandenavean Defense", "Pourtugeese Variation of the "Skandenavean", "Rushin' Defense" (and you probably think Rush Limbaugh invented that one), and "Awstrein Attack", right?

    Long story short, forget about openings for now.  You have more important fish to fry.  Study openings when you're about 500 points higher, and can actually identify them!

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #15

    xxvalakixx

    It is impossible to understand openings to move 20, if you even do not understand chess...Openings should be studied to move 20 after you reached the grandmaster level.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #16

    royalbishop

    xxvalakixx wrote:

    It is impossible to understand openings to move 20, if you even do not understand chess...Openings should be studied to move 20 after you reached the grandmaster level.

    Xtra, xtra read all about it!

    .
    This is chess.com and if your losing against an opening your going to keep seeing over and over again till you beat it. That is how they do it here. And just because you figure a variation of it out they move on to another variation of it. Now this is a case to learn it out to 20 moves. I had this proble against a couple players .... yeah most likely multi account users.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #17

    Expertise87

    I recently played a game that went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 O-O-O 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6 Bd6 13.Bg5 Rde8 14.Qe1 Qxe1+ 15.Raxe1 Kd7 16.Rxe8 Rxe8 17.Rxe8 Kxe8 18.Kf1 Kd7 19.Ke2 Ke6 20.Kd3 Kd5 21.Nxd4!? Nxd4?! 22.c4+ Kc5 23.Be3 Be5 24.f4 Bf6 25.g4 g6 26.b4+ Kxb4 27.Bxd4 Bxd4? 28.Kxd4 with a won ending. I knew theory to here and a few more moves. But that's only because of the one opening book I've read, Winning with the Guioco Piano and Max Lange Attack by GM Andy Soltis, which I read as a 1385-rated player. That knight sac in the endgame has actually won me a few games, although strong players usually play 21...Nb4+ and then White has to play accurately to hold a draw.

    This is theory past move 20, but again it's an isolated case.

    Another line I know past move 20 is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Bc5 6.e5 d5 7.exf6 dxc4 8.Re1+?! (8.fxg7 is the only try for advantage) 8...Be6 9.Ng5 Qd5 10.Nc3 Qf5 11.Nce4 O-O-O 12.g4 Qe5 13.Nxe6 fxe6 14.fxg7 Rhg8 15.Bh6 d3 16.c3 d2 17.Re2 Rd3 18.Qf1 Qd5 19.Rd1 Ne5 20.Nf6 Qf3! 21.Nxg8 Qxg4+ 22.Kh1 Qf3+, draw. From the same book.

    For some reason, that book is the only one I have any memory of. I read another line in another book and I forget it within a few hours, but I only had that book in my possession for one evening and never saw it again.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #18

    ThePeanutMonster

    ThrillerFan wrote:
    uhohspaghettio wrote:

    What age is he? If he doesn't know the Najdorf 20 moves deep by age 10 he can probably say goodbye to ever becoming a grandmaster...... not for any practical reasons, but because for great players it just comes naturally and automatically. 

    To him, "Najdorf" doesn't exist.  It's probably more like the "Nahdwarf" variation of the "Cecilian Defense"

    Dude - It's "Sicilian" - As in Sicily, where the name comes from, kinda like the English Opening, or Scandinavian Defense, etc, or I guess to you, that's probably "Inglich Opening", "Skandenavean Defense", "Pourtugeese Variation of the "Skandenavean", "Rushin' Defense" (and you probably think Rush Limbaugh invented that one), and "Awstrein Attack", right?

    Long story short, forget about openings for now.  You have more important fish to fry.  Study openings when you're about 500 points higher, and can actually identify them!

    Don't be a meat on spelling.

    It may be crazy for you to understand, I know, but there are people in this world whose second language is English, and some words are not intuitive. I'd like to see you describe all the openings perfectly in French, or any other language for that matter. 

    And before you give the whole "his flag is US he should know better", it may also shock you to know that there are some people in the US who also have English as a second language. For these people, who may try to communicate in English on an English forum, I say kudos: it's not easy communicating in a language that is not your own.

    Now, I know this may not be the case here, but it may be, either way - don't hassle someone for trying. Everyone makes mistakes.

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #19

    chasm1995

    What's the Cecilian?  Is it like the Sicilian?  Innocent

  • 20 months ago · Quote · #20

    DrFrank124c

    Bobby Fischer said "Know thy MCO." So if you want to be a great grandmaster just get a copy of MCO and memorize it. Of course to do this you would need to have a photographic memory like Fischer's. 


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