Why isn't this opening played more often? Can an experienced player answer?

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5th June 2008, 07:59pm
#1
by depthshaman
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 280

Its essentially 1. Nf3 and after 1... d5 white fianchetto's his queenside bishop and aims to control the e5 square. Here's a sample of what it looks like, I'm still experimenting with it, and will make more in depth post about is later with the intent of it being educational. But why out of 400,000 games on chessgames.com this has only been used in 400 recorded games? Nimzowitch used it very successfully in setups that ressembled queen's indian games where white is up a move. It has yielded me a lot of success without studying a single book on it.  It often catches opponents by surprise  too, although its not the hardest opening to equalize against. But its great if one's strength is positional play. Why isn't it more popular?

5th June 2008, 08:39pm
#2
by Omicron
Buenos Aires Argentina
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 200

I'm probably not the best one to answer your post, because my opening theory isn't all that strong. However I'll risk an opinion. I think this opening looks solid. Maybe the drawback is that it may be a little "passive"; seing as how black has lots of options to play. Another thing against queenside fianchetos maybe that the b3 pawn blocks the d1-a4 diagonal for the queen; and that diagonal is specially important once you push c4. Nonetheless, it IS a positional opening and it seemes to put a lot of pressure on black's kingside castle; which is the way black will castle 90% of the time.

     I'll have to try this one to see how it works out.


5th June 2008, 09:04pm
#3
by depthshaman
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 280
You're right about it being passive. I analyzed it with fritz and found that about four moves in the position is exactly equal. With an e4 opening four moves in it can be around .5 in white's favor. So, it isn't forcing, but if playing a weak positional player, white can often get a pawn majority in the middle and march up the board. So yeah, give it a try. I like it because although its not forcing, its pretty easy to use with both colors and has taught me some pretty important lessons so far.
5th June 2008, 09:33pm
#4
by Hrolf
United States
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 95
It looks solid.  It reminds me of certain lines of the Sicilian Defense, only the Queen's bishop isn't usually fianchettoed (a nice way of solving the problem of how to develop it).  However, as black, I would play 2. ...c5, 3. ...Nc6, 4. ...e6, 5. ...Nf6 for as broad a share of the center as possible.  I would like to see how these moves would affect white's development.
5th June 2008, 09:39pm
#5
by GrimReaper7752
Darkest depths of Hell United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 213
I believe Bent Larsen and Aron Nimzowitch both played this opening well, and I think it is named for the both of them as the larsen nimzo attack I could be wrong but I dont think I am. I belive Larsen did well with it for awhile in the 60's and 70's.On why it isnt played I  have to blame the computer era finding the flaws in it
isnt so hard when you have databases an analysis bots doing all the work for you. it is not even a game of minds any more it is becoming a game of silicon. I do not like the lameness in draws because computers cant beat another computer. they are not masters anymore just the same type of people that could beat you in the arcades earlier in life because they found the bugs and flaws in the computer and use cheat codes to get an easily passed game. I t is a waste of our time and theirs as well because it didnt come from their mind it came from a bots mind. In essence they are an extention of their computer, that and nothing more.
5th June 2008, 09:47pm
#6
by Agent86
United States
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 23
I have to agree with the other posters above me here. The opening appears solid enough, but is certainly not very aggressive. On the positive side, it is very flexible and could lead to a great deal of original Chess. This is good if you want to take your opponent out of book early and play an "honest game." The down side is that Black is allowed to pick his plan with White having little-to-nothing to say about it. This is of course consistent with Nimzowitch's whole hyper-modern approach, but none of us are Nimzowitch (or Larsen for that matter!).
5th June 2008, 10:54pm
#7
by depthshaman
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 280

grim reaper, I'm not so sure how computers have made openings like this useless or exposed their flaws. I versed fritz against itself a couple of times using this one and it isn't like white loses everytime from some flaw. Agent 86, the thing is, no matter what white picks black has a huge disposal of tools and defenses. Think of e4! Caro-khan, french, epine dorsal, sicilain, 1...Nf6, etc etc. This is no different. Hrolf suggested a queen's gambit type set up. I'll show you how to tackle this as white:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's daunting, and my king died a good five times before I learned how to tackle such a strong center. The key is a d4 break, opposed to the c4 breaks in the other setups.

 

If anyone is interested in this opening, please give me a message or leave a note. The opening is a lot of fun and a good way to throw opponents off who have never encountered anything like it. If we had five people with chess engines and a little creativity, we could divide up and analyze each of black's setups and then swap lines. 


5th June 2008, 10:57pm
#8
by onewho_dies
United States
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 477
Hhmm well looks kinda what I play with the birds and I enjoy it. The only difference is that the pawn on f4 is attacking e5 as well.
6th June 2008, 12:19am
#9
by depthshaman
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 280

The bird seems to expose white's king in some lines, where as this opening keeps white's king very safe. The f4 is unnessecary because white already has excellent control of e5 anyway.  Often I reinforce that control with f4 after the knight on f3 moves. I considered using the bird, but I like the solid defensive style of this one. It seems safer. F4 does prevent black from playing d6 then e5, which is a whole other approach white has to be ready for with this one. after 1..d6 though, 2. e5 should give white a strong opening though.
6th June 2008, 03:11am
#10
by Gonnosuke
Southern California Germany
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 2554

In my opinion, this opening is problematic for a few reasons, the most of important of which is that White starts the game by making a strategic concession.  To quote from "Nimzo-Larsen Attack" by Jacobs/Tait: "...let us make it clear, first of all, that White has no advantage in the Nimzo-Larsen."

Granted, it looks like you're talking about the Reti as well as the Nimzo-Larsen but regardless, the quote above is a fairly serious indictment of an opening and it's enough to scare most people away from it.  I think it's telling that you say "it's not the hardest opening to equalize against" because it shows that you've noticed (or "felt") that black seems to have an easier time playing against it than he normally does playing against the standard white openings.   

The value of using an opening like this comes mostly in OTB games where time is a factor and your opponent doesn't have access to opening books or databases.  By opening in an unusual manner you're hoping to surprise your opponent and force him to play in unfamiliar territory.  If you use it too much, your opponents will see it coming and you're going to end up missing that small, but important edge that white starts each and every game with when he opens the game in a more conventional manner. 

Regards, Roy

p.s.

In your diagrams you don't show black using a kingside fianchetto to counter white's queenside version.  I think this is one of the more logical and popular black responses when he sees b3.  Just thought I'd mention it.

 


6th June 2008, 03:30am
#11
by Dark_Daemon_
pagrati Greece
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 48

are u looking for .... an experienced player!?!?

here i am!! :P

i agree with omicron [1st comment]

there are some players who like defending with closed game for them in the opening and counter atack in the middle game . 

+why this opening reminds me hipo's opening???  :S


6th June 2008, 03:50am
#12
by TwoMove
High Wycombe, Leeds or Bodmin England
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 3469

After 1.Nf3 d5 2.b3 c5 think it is more accurate to play 3.e3 so can respond to 3...f6  4.d4. After 3.Bb2 f6 can find yourself on wrong end of a Petrosian v Fischer game, which was not a phleasant experience for white.

               Finding 1.Nf3 followed by b3 very popular in Denmark where they like following their Nimzo, and Larsen. When playing all out for win play 1.Nf3 g6 heading for an agressive english with e5, and f5 if they don't want to play an KID. This gives them something to think about. Normally would play 1.Nf3 d5 2.b3 Bg4 which is very solid for both sides. White can play Queen's Indian moves.

Bye John S


6th June 2008, 12:17pm
#13
by depthshaman
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 280

Let's see if what you say is true Gonnosuke. I just looked up 1. Nf3 d5 2. b5 on chessgames.com and found that overall white wins 36.3% of the time, draws 33.8% and loses 29.9%. This must opening must confer some advantage if white wins 7% more of the time. But searching one move deeper is interesting though.  The following charts lists the move, the number of games in the database, and the win percentages.

2...Nf6 313

36.1%

36.4%

27.5%
2...Bg4 146

26%

40.4%

33.6%
2...c5 137

33.6%

30.7%

35.8%
2...Bf5 37

54.1%

32.4%

13.5
2...c6 16

56.2%

18.8%

25%
2...e6 12

41.7%

16.7

41.7%
2...Nc6 5

20%

40%

40%
2...f6 4

75%

25%
2...g6 4

25%

50%

25%
2...Nd7 G Fontein vs J Van Den Bosch, 1930 1/2-1/2

Interesting. Lets start with 2...c5. It looks like white is getting walloped right? Wrong. After 2... c5:

3. e3 107

35.5%

34.6%

29.9%
3. Bb2 43

32.6%

23.3%

44.2%
3. g3 2

50%

50%
3. c4 2

100%
3. e4 G Rigo vs M Vasilev, 2001 0-1

As long as white plays 3. e3 he is in the clear.

What about 2...Bg4? it looks like it also gives white problems.

3. Bb2 96

24%

39.6%

36.5%
3. e3 56

26.8%

46.4%

26.8%
3. g3 6

50%

16.7

33.3%
3. Ne5 5

60%

40%
3. d4 2

50%

50%

This is definately a sharper reply, but it seems like e3, and g3 both work for an even game. And really, how many people are going to learn an opening this obscure? 1. Nf3  d5  2. b3 Bg4?   No one other than someone planning to play it as white. 

 All the other ones accept for the obscure ones offer white a clear advantage. It looks like I'm going to have to disagree with you Gonosuke. This opening doesn't appear to give up all advantage as long as white is cautious not to put the bishop on b2 too early.

 

BTW against a black kingside fianchetto, apparently white can fianchetto both bishops for a good game. 

 


7th June 2008, 02:47am
#14
by TwoMove
High Wycombe, Leeds or Bodmin England
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 3469

Umm 1.Nf3 d5 2. b3 Bg4 isn't really obscure. It is recommend in Kaufmann's book The advantage in Black and white, or something similar, and played by Keres, Shirov etc. For people with a GGD\Slav rep d5, followed by Bg4 is a sound way of meeting several off-beat white openings.

                  One way black can try to liven up game is 3.e3 Nd7 4.Bb2 BxN 5.QxB e5 with some sort of reversed Trop. Otherwise, black can just develop normally with Nf6,e6,Bd6 etc.


7th June 2008, 03:23am
#15
by wormrose
Lake Tahoe, NV United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 2473
It is true - Jacobs and Tait said White has no advantage, but they also said, "the player who brings more to the game - in imagination, technique, spirit or understanding - will generally have the better chances." It used to be called the Queen's Fianchetto or Danish Opening. In 1977 Raymond Keene wrote a wonderful book about it and gave it the name Nimzowitsch/Larsen Attack after the two modern players who made the most significant contributions to it's theory. It is a favorite of Bagirov and Blatny. Fischer played it in five beautiful games. It is catalogued ECO A01. Bill Wall also published a book about it. It opens 1.b3 (Larsen) or 1.Nf3 2.b3 (Nimzo) or even 1.e3 2.b3. It's my favorite opening and I love it. I have played over 150 games using it and have enjoyed them very much scoring about 65% wins against players rated near my own strength. It is a lot of fun, especially if you are looking for something different.
7th June 2008, 03:29am
#16
by kamapuaa
Örebro Sweden
Member Since: Apr 2008
Member Points: 142
i like that opening for white and i hate to play against it as black.  the main reason i donät use it is that it is a bit too booorrrrring for me :)  i prefer wild offensive games, even if it ends in a loss for me, which it often does.  the other reason is that it requires complex positional play.  in long tournaments, that causes me too much fatigue to play well throughout the whole tournament.
7th June 2008, 03:50am
#17
by shambo
Great Britain
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 297
I think I've played with this opening a couple of times and would love to play it more often. I also play the Reti. I'll tell you how I get on.(my rating is generally around 1300, just now it's in the 1400s)
7th June 2008, 07:18pm
#18
by depthshaman
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 280
well, its certainly nice to here that I'm not the only player using it, and I think, at least based on the last three posts, that this certainly can't be all that bad. I will definately check out the book wormrose! And for sure the games in which Fischer used it. Danish opening huh? I think I like that better than Nimzowich-Larsen attack. I will definately have to read up on an early Bg4. It seems the best way to reply.
7th June 2008, 09:59pm
#19
by Dalems
New Mexico United States
Member Since: Dec 2007
Member Points: 28
This looks like a very interesting opening I think that I will start using it as white and post what I come up with.
8th June 2008, 03:42am
#20
by wormrose
Lake Tahoe, NV United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 2473
depthshaman - when you reach this position - consider 5.Bb5 pinning the Knight. It's a Reversed Nimzo-Indian. The idea is to remove the Knight because of it's influence on e5. But don't take it until Black wastes a tempo with ...a6. In leu of ...a6 Black can break the pin with Bd7 or Qd7 or O-O and that's when to exchange on c6. And then... play your Nf3 to e5 and push f4 to support your Knight. You now have a very solid Knight outpost. This can also be accomplished by playing an early f4 and then playing the Ng1 to f3 and then e5 after pinning the Knight on c6 with Bb5. Of course that's a different move order starting with 1.b3 If you wish to discuss this opening more - please feel free to message me.

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