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why the Giuoco piano isn't played?


  • 2 years ago · Quote · #21

    NimzoRoy

    xxvalakixx wrote:

    There are 2 reasons.The first is that, e4-e5 openings are not played so often.

    After 1.e4 the Game Explorer shows e4-e5 openings are in fact played so often

    MoveGames
    White Wins
    Draws
    Black Wins
    1...c5 272,196
    37.5% 30.4% 32.1%
    1...e5 128,964
    38% 35.4% 26.7%
    1...e6 77,554
    40% 32% 27.9%
    1...c6 40,583
    37.8% 35.9% 26.3%
    1...d6 24,034
    41.8% 30.2% 28.1%
    1...g6 20,495
    39.2% 27.7% 33%
    1...Nf6 15,129
    40.4% 30.2% 29.4%
    1...d5 12,990
    42.8% 29.8% 27.4%
  • 2 years ago · Quote · #22

    TheGreatOogieBoogie

    theidoogy wrote:
    ScorpionPackAttack wrote:

    Probably because it's recommended for beginners, meaning that their book knowledge will mitigate any weak moves they would otherwise make.  For example, without books a beginner may play ...Bb6 when Bb4+ is the only move that fights for equality.  Other openings would create more complicated problems for the beginner that they aren't equipped to solve.  It is recommended by some to play classically even as black, but unless the opponent is playing 1.g4 1.b4 1.g3 1.b3 and maybe 1.c4 (all of which mean that playing 1...e5 will ensure an imbalanced game) I don't see why I should just react to white. 

    As a beginner i used to play the italian, but other variations like four knights and such. Only when i study openings i decide to understand the idea behind the italian and begind the move of giuoco piano.

    Just for you guys to know, i don't play it either, i play usually queen's gambit and sometimes ruy lopez (as white), i don't play this opening, i just don't like this opening, it's too boring and excpected, but i wondered how any player never (never!!!) played it against me.

    The Giuco Piano isn't inherantly boring, but only seems that way because so many games throughout history started that way and it has been analysed to death.  I was studying a Petrosian game and thought, "Four Knights game?!  Good grief, but I'll stick with this study" Then, things started becoming imbalanced, and even interesting!  For example, Petrosian made an eventual Qh5 move (presumably) meant to prevent black from playing ...h5, which ensured that white would carry on with his pawn storm.  Petrosian was also so obsessed with the e6 square that he forgot an even stronger sac with Nf6, leading to a massive win in material or mate.  On its own the four knights is boring, but that Four Knights' game taught me that the players themselves can make even the dullest openings interesting.  Then again it is the middlegame where the interesting positions are anyway.  

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #23

    TheGreatOogieBoogie

    hessmaster wrote:
     

     

    I always hate those lines where white trades the Nc6 then follows up with e5!  Or, plays Qf3, which prevents ...b6 as e5 hits the knight while the queen stares down at the rook.  I mostly like Sicilians with a6,e6, and d6 pawns, usually not moving the b-pawn until some other pieces move first.  Though, I like a bishop on e6 as it watches the usually weak d5 square.  I also usually know when to push for a ...d5 pawn break or even ...e5 if white has an f-pawn out like in the f4 open Sicilians. 

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #24

    traxlerman

    Because Black achieves close to an equal position



  • 2 years ago · Quote · #25

    TheGreatOogieBoogie

    Oh, here's the Petrosian game I was referring to:

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #26

    LinuxMan

    I used to play GP but I found that it lacks the teeth to force your opponent to be on the defense. Too many opportunities for your opponent to grab the initiative. As a class A player, I tend to play masked openings, meaning it could be started with something that may look unstandard and eventually develop it to a strong book opening.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #28

    ChrisWainscott

    I play the Italian rather frequently and here in Wisconsin it's undergoing something of a renaissance...

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #29

    RybkaShredder

    I play it for black. I am undefeated in OTB games with it from both colors. I occasionally play it as white if I need a win. I have two wins as white, two wins with black and one draw as black

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #30

    cartmankyle

    I've always liked the Guitar better.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #31

    AndyClifton

    Hm, the Guitar Piano...

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #32

    TheGreatOogieBoogie

    pfren wrote:
    ScorpionPackAttack wrote:

    Oh, here's the Petrosian game I was referring to:

    Nice game, but mr. Novotelnov was too compliant right from the opening: by prematurely capturing on c3, he allowed white to play the desirable d2-d4 in one go instead of d2-d3 and later d3-d4. He also placed a mule at g6 after white had played g2-g3, where it was doing precisely nothing.

    Honestly, I was trying really hard to reason why black played that, and in my notes noted it was weak at worst and at best a faulty defensive preparation.  As for the Bxc3 yeah, that was premature and looked like a positional mistake but didn't want to sound like I think I know better than masters, so thought there was at least enough merit behind it (though analysing from the white side wasn't my problem) to be played on Petrosian's level to justify it (somehow).  I still won't take up the four knights anytime soon, but I liked looking over that game and taking note of plans, imbalances, etc. 

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #33

    theidoogy

    xxvalakixx wrote:

    There are 2 reasons.The first is that, e4-e5 openings are not played so often.
    Secondly,it is not give any advantage for black. For example.

     



    The idea of giuoco piano is bringing the pawn to d4, then d3 is a bad move, especially after the knight comes into the board.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #34

    Andre_Harding

    The Italian Game isn't as strong as the Ruy Lopez, but is still pretty dangerous if White knows what they are doing.

    In addition to the Moller Attack lines with 3...Bc5 4.c3, there are the Giuoco Pianissimo systems with d3 and c3 (which should not be underestimated), and also my favorite, the Canal Variation with 4.d3 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Bg5. The Canal is completely equal if Black knows their stuff, but that doesn't prevent many players from getting into hot water against it. Check a good database, and you will see many examples of 2400+ players getting smoked. Black should eat White's LSB with his QN, but even then there are still some chances to play for a win...

    For Giuoco middlegame ideas, I highly recommend GM Khachiyan's lectures on this site.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #35

    Andre_Harding

    I think there are way too many lower-rated players who use the Sicilian. I believe everyone should answer 1.e4 with 1...e5 until they are at least 1600. The problem, in my view, is that a lot of teachers don't spend enough time on fundamental positional play and maneuvering, and they don't show their students enough classical games. 

    So students get the idea that the double king pawn openings are "boring" and don't appreciate the subtle play that can arise from the Four Knights or the Hungarian Defense, for example. Lots of points to be had by outplaying such opponents!

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #36

    GM_fishys

    I find the sicilian the easiest opening to beat at my level

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #37

    DrSpudnik

    It's easy to misplay at any level.

  • 2 years ago · Quote · #38

    Estragon

    Andre_Harding wrote:

    I think there are way too many lower-rated players who use the Sicilian. I believe everyone should answer 1.e4 with 1...e5 until they are at least 1600. The problem, in my view, is that a lot of teachers don't spend enough time on fundamental positional play and maneuvering, and they don't show their students enough classical games. 

    So students get the idea that the double king pawn openings are "boring" and don't appreciate the subtle play that can arise from the Four Knights or the Hungarian Defense, for example. Lots of points to be had by outplaying such opponents!

     

    I agree.  The various structures which result from 1 e4 e5 are essential to understanding position play and should be learned before the semi-open games, especially the Sicilian with its fluid structure. 

    Not sure if it is the teachers and coaches, or just the natural tendency of fans to follow the great players, and the Sicilian has been very popular at the highest levels for more than half a century. 


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