chess: fun or evil

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20th January 2008, 12:49pm
#21
by Ned63
Brit working in Germany Germany
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 204
Drohan wrote: So...........who wants to lay some play money down?

You know, thats a really good idea!

 

I know that internet gambling sites have been squashed in the US, but how about a chess tournament (e.g. 32 players, $1 entry, 1st place takes 70%, 2nd 30%).  Is this classed as gambling?  No raising the stakes, doubling up, or anything like that.  Any Lawyers out there that can advise?

 

In my way of thinking, putting up a dollar for myself so that I can play in a tournament, is a bit like me investing a dollar in my own IPO in the XXX (substitute any business arena name here) market, where all the other guys in the market are doing the same.

 

If legal, this would involve some serious development by the chess.com guys, but I believe it could make the chess.com site even more 'visitable' than it already is.

 

Ian

20th January 2008, 12:51pm
#22
by Ned63
Brit working in Germany Germany
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 204
Ned63 wrote: Drohan wrote: So...........who wants to lay some play money down?

You know, thats a really good idea!

 

I know that internet gambling sites have been squashed in the US, but how about a chess tournament (e.g. 32 players, $1 entry, 1st place takes 70%, 2nd 30%).  Is this classed as gambling?  No raising the stakes, doubling up, or anything like that.  Any Lawyers out there that can advise?

 

In my way of thinking, putting up a dollar for myself so that I can play in a tournament, is a bit like me investing a dollar in my own IPO in the XXX (substitute any business arena name here) market, where all the other guys in the market are doing the same.

 

If legal, this would involve some serious development by the chess.com guys, but I believe it could make the chess.com site even more 'visitable' than it already is.

 

Ian


But,

 

it would be open to serious abuse, so scrub that

20th January 2008, 12:53pm
#23
by Unbeliever
United States
Member Since: Nov 2007
Member Points: 1119
ThomasK wrote: chess should be banned!!!  Its just too violent for words!!  All that killing those cute little pawns, just waiting there to be trampled upon by those horrid, bullying aristocratic knights, not to mention those devious and rather sinister priests!  And of what of that feminist or should I say strident gay Queen! whilst that fat old king just sits there watching.  I say BAN the game god know what it will do to our children.  Lets find a bridge with a stream under it as Ray Brooks suggested and throw sticks into it.

 Lol!  I love the amount of humor on this site that is interjected into usually serious situations.


20th January 2008, 12:54pm
#24
by mackandstella
United States
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 12
well chess is one of the many arts you can't ban it
20th January 2008, 01:29pm
#25
by Ray_Brooks
Heart of Darkness England
Member Since: Aug 2007
Member Points: 2166
Rael wrote:

Oh, and Ray Brooks, you know where you can shove those Pooh sticks, eh?


Bend over Rael!

20th January 2008, 01:34pm
#26
by NimbleKnight
Bobtown,Pa United States
Member Since: Jul 2007
Member Points: 34
"Chess is an enjoyable waste of time."
20th January 2008, 01:43pm
#27
by Ray_Brooks
Heart of Darkness England
Member Since: Aug 2007
Member Points: 2166

Rael,

1. Chess is a game founded on technique and learning, if a player can't handle that, they should probably look for another game, that doesn't include either of those two concepts.

2. My second remark was a direct reply to your insinuation. So, don't play whiter than white with me, it doesn't wash.

3. Chill out man! Who made you our moral guardian? Get off your high horse.

20th January 2008, 01:57pm
#28
by Ray_Brooks
Heart of Darkness England
Member Since: Aug 2007
Member Points: 2166
Olive branch accepted with good grace. BTW I don't memorize any opening lines at all, I just don't have that sort of patience. Any opening knowledge I possess has been accrued through experience. Smile
20th January 2008, 03:01pm
#29
by Riga
Moscow Russia
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 40

as to the beauty of chess (instead of simple fun), the main thing you gain by increasing your knowledge is seeing much more finesses, much more beauty,  like studying math and physics brings you ability to understand and be astonished by many things that other people see at much lower level, I can witness the difference is large.


12th February 2008, 12:23pm
#30
by tabaxi
BC Canada
Member Since: Dec 2007
Member Points: 31
Rael wrote:

I think most posters are responding somewhat meanspiritedly to what is Chessica's legitimate frustration - she may not have expressed it as succinctly as possible, but I feel I agree with what is at the heart of her concern (and you guys who are going on about knowledge and wisdom and science are clearly wildly misreading it to sound profound, you're technically correct but what she's talking about is chess and only chess.)

I was going to make a long blog post about this as well, but I haven't found the exact words. One of my intuitions on the matter was that it that one of the most profound things that can occur in chess is a sense of being able to measure your partners thought processes and emotional state... I've played many intimate on the board games whereby I felt it really gave me insight into the relationship I had with that person. The more rote memorization, the more excess study, the more the game of chess becomes playing yourself, which is fair, I'm doing that to a degree as well.

But here's what I was thinking: imagine, for a moment, that I could beat, hands down, in 6 moves, everyone I ever came across in real life. How awful would that be? A friend and I sit down for an enjoyable game of chess and what happens? It's over before the game even started. We're packing up just after we set up. Sure I'm winning, but that's not the point. The point is to have a great game.

Even if I win, I want the other person to walk away feeling refreshed and excited - having really experienced what a game of chess can offer. This is to a degree self-interested: if I beat them too quickly all the time I'll quickly run out of people to play with at all. But it's moreso owing to the fact that I love playing chess. Playing it. Not winning it devestatingly everytime, as if it proves my intelligence.

I agree with Chessica that it takes a lot of the fun away when you sit down with someone and realize you're playing against a book, not them. Don't get me wrong, I own lots of chessbooks and love studying strategy and tactics, but I have yet to memorize any opening lines - it's why my rating is so low, no doubt. But really, there is no solution - people can engage chess in whichever way they want - playing others romantically, or playing themselves as a intellectual and academic pursuit. So with all that being said - you posters who are laughing at her (the funniest thing you've read in ages? Ass.) or trying to nitpick her argument apart rather than understand where she might be coming from can relax. Not everyone wants to beat their friends up with the Dragon variation of the Sicillian Niwmzowich variation of the Grunefeld or something. Sheesh.

Let's play, Chessica.


 

Loved this post Rael! I often think exactly that process with people. My frustration sometimes comes from not knowing the language. Perhaps we are able to understand each other a little more succulently when are able to understand which moves are being played against us. More finesse, like saying glorious, jubilant and ecstatic instead of happy, happier and happiest.

 


15th June 2008, 05:06pm
#31
by pulsar8472
Santa Monica United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 56

It is scary knowing there are still people out there who would like to burn books.

  


23rd June 2008, 03:54pm
#32
by Riga
Moscow Russia
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 40
pulsar8472 wrote:

It is scary knowing there are still people out there who would like to burn books.

  


excellent answer! bravo!


27th June 2008, 12:48pm
#33
by CJBas
Alabama United States
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 107
No matter how well studied a player is, there comes a time in every game where you are on your own.
25th July 2008, 07:56pm
#34
by bier
austin United States
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 87

If indeed I had not learned ,say math,from the experience of others,I may well think 2+2=5.Even the best of the best walked on the shoulders of those before them.

28th August 2008, 03:28pm
#35
by Sir_Gawain
Dallas United States
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 77

Personally, I find Chessica's view refreshing, and mockery of Chessica's post only reenforces Chessica's points of view.  It (mockery) also serves to discourage new players by belittling their opinions, of which, they have as much right to express as anyone else, especially if the forum doesn't know the age and playing ability of the contributor.  Haven't thought about it much previously, but I know my game needs a "Pooh-stick" quite often.   

As mentioned previously, chess is a game which I would wager even Chessica learned to play from someone with previous experience. The game has been "handed down" by others about 1,500 years. In fact, we know a lot about the history of chess from written documentation and imagery in art work throughout the centuries.  We have learned a great deal from documentation of previous games, learning how our earlier ancestors played the game.

Isn't it fair to say that even if we are to play by spontaneity alone, aren't we still learning from the skills and errors in each of our games?  

Like it or not, the fact is that chess is a game of progressive skill.  If a player doesn't learn from his or her own mistakes, or by watching or reading from others, then are we not sentencing ourselves to hypocrisy?  That is to say, Chessica, that whether players read and study chess (moves) of other players, and even if we are left to seek our own strategies, won't our playing abilities progress by our own experiences of trial and error?  Won't these experiences be communicated to our next opponent(s), as well as learned by ourselves, one way or another?  

I can empathize with Chessica regarding the overwhelming abilities within the game, and disliking opposing drooling, bloodthirsty attitudes out for a kill, which, I too, find difficult to rationalize as "sportsmanlike".  The same goes for caustic ridicule of another player's opinion.  I can agree with Chessica in that regard, but as for progressing in any game, sport, or other facet of life, life is often said to be "a learning experience."  I just don't see how we can prevent ourselves from learning from others, and others from us, Chessica, can you?

I, for one, appreciated Chessica's post, and the various responses.  Won't we all be learning something from our shared views?  I believe Chessica will reconsider, but we can be grateful the forum provided a good learning experience for all.  "The Great Pooh" has spoken.

28th August 2008, 08:00pm
#36
by corben
Rancho Relaxo Mexico
Member Since: Mar 2008
Member Points: 12

I think he/she only wishes this game could be more "fair" , with everybody starting with the same chances, including knowledge, she would like to have a game where the only requirements were one's natural skill, and that nobody could overplay others because of using learnt moves or strategies from a book. i guess it would be fair in a sense, but then again, as others pointed out, chess advances with this kind of learnt knowledge, and after all, two can play the same game chessica, grab some book and study some openings/defences and you'll be on the same conditions that other players, or maybe above. it hasn't to be boring nor take a long time, in fact, you could even find fun in researching openings.

29th August 2008, 01:31pm
#37
by Sir_Gawain
Dallas United States
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 77

Two other reflections regarding your concern, Chessica, is that chess, as most players realize, is much like life.  We go to school throughout our lives to be able to apply classroom learning to real life.  It's generally thought that those who do better in life are those who have done well in school, though we know that isn't always the case.  Just like in school, there are bullies and those who make fun of us while we're learning, but we also make some of our best lifelong friends there, too, and chess is no exception.  Some aggravators enjoy showing their natural human misbehavior which the rest of have to learn to deal with until they realize they aren't "the smartest knives in the drawer" -- that there's always a bigger or more cunning adversary who will eventually squash them and make them look stupid. A smart player knows how fallible he or she is.  You would think they would have learned this from playing chess.    Undecided  Wink

Secondly, about learning chess from books, viewing other games, DVD's, etc.  I'm sure there are many chess players who see the seeming futility of learning strategies which are already played and proven.  But isn't that the way life is, too?  We go through the same steps as most people, experience many of the same joys and sorrows as everyone else, step in the same mud puddles, yet we have to learn to do it to live. With chess, we can experience many of the fascinations others have, but we have a belief, that with all of the possible combinations, that we might do better than our predecessors.  To some players, the 'win' is a boost of ego and builds their self-esteem.  To other players, going through the motions of chess builds concentration and tests our mental agility, even though we may have studied the game for a long time.  How often do we find that school fails to prepare us for many of life's challenges?  The same is true of studying chess.  

There are so many combinations in chess, that even with study, again, as in life, we'll never know it all.  As with any human competition, and, again, life, the chess player learns to take advantage of opportunity from availability, human error, ineptness, or position.  As in life, some people are born to wealth, others to poverty, yet each must learn to negotiate within their environment.  It seems harsh, but it's reality.  At least on the chessboard, everyone begins, basically, with the same material strength, though I know there are some arguments for white's advantage.  (Today, I'm surprised someone hasn't called chess a "racist game".)

Here's another point about studying chess in advance of the game.  In school, we study history at all educational levels so that humankind learns from it's past.  I've forgotten the contributor, but it's been said that those who fail to learn from the past are destined to repeat it.  I think you will agree that this is also the true of chess.  I think all players, sooner or later, fall into some of the same traps because we are human and forget.  Remember, there is some form of human error in every game, one side more than the other.

I hope what I've written here adds some clarity to your frustration.  I, too, wish life wasn't as cruel as it often is, at times.  Many of us do.  But some good advice to coping with life, and you've no doubt heard this, learn when dealt lemons, make lemonade.  

   While chess can seem ugly, cruel, aggressive, tedious, and a lot more, it can also be beautiful in the way the moves produce a logical and natural sequencing of priorities.  The strategies can appear intricate as art work.  

Each chess player has their reason(s) for playing the game, and each player takes with them what they are able to see in it.  As with life, either we drink lemonade, or try to find a more suitable drink.  My experience is, after a lot lemonade and all things considered, chess offers a lot more flavor than most other options. We all have decide what suits us.

Thanks for taking the risk to post your frustration.  I believe you expressed a valid criticism. 

15th April 2009, 07:18pm
#38
by Dash3000
Mati City Philippines
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 130

Learning through reading books and/or experiences isn't cheating.  It's natural for a person to seek for progress.

15th April 2009, 08:26pm
#39
by AfafBouardi
Rabat Morocco
Member Since: Jan 2009
Member Points: 1148

Some really in depth responses...  I honestly thought Chessica was making a joke with this post.  evil?  The very essence of what makes chess fascinating is learning how your mistakes work and graduating from one level to the next.  As ozzie claypot put it "becoming less incompetent".  

If we were to sit at every chessboard with the same knowledge we had the first time we sat down...maybe that would be like an IQ test?  

I think the idea to play Fischer Random might be best if that's your inclination.  If this original post is at all serious.  

18th April 2009, 05:58pm
#40
by ChessBlucher
North Carolina United States
Member Since: Feb 2008
Member Points: 57
chessica wrote:

Actually chess is a fun game ONLY if you just play it with your common sense, but people have made it an  evil game by studying books and adopting pre existing techniques, so much that I some times hate to play. These people actually cheat because they are not playing purely by their mind but by the experiences of  others and that makes it like a job and no fun. I hate those cheaters and so called champions and chess fake gods. I like people who play spontaneously, just using their own mind wisdom, tactics and common sense.Because I like to play for fun not to drop others confidence down.Bringing others self esteem down is no fun and i think its unhuman n cruel. we should treat it just a light game and no more. and play using only your own mind and thinking. I ish we have another chess.com just for fun players who use only their own brains !!!

Thanks,

Chessica


This is what is wrong with allot of people in the world today. They think that everytime someone beats them at something they are trying to bring down there "self-confidence" instead of sportsmanly admitting that they are not as good. If you are just playing for fun then losing won't bring down your self-confidence anyway. So Chessica if you are playing just for fun then lighten up. Some people (including myself) think that chess is a beautiful game, and want to learn all the nuiances of the beautiful game that they can. They are not evil; just simply of another mindset than yourself. Thanks for your time, and I apologize if I was a little hard on you Chessica. No hard feelings.


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