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Did Karpov ever sacrificed a piece of initiative?


  • 3 years ago · Quote · #21

    waffllemaster

    Elubas wrote:

    No, it's actually a straightforward win -- the difficulty is considering the concept, because it's so striking. I actually played this position (it was a quiz) against a computer, without knowing the solution, and I just played normal moves, completely oblivious to ...Bh3 the entire time. What's funny is that even the computer never suggested the move. If you would have found this move, then you're a great player, because I didn't after taking plenty of time. Of course, it's easier once you have seen something like this before or are very familiar with the concept of doing anything to get a strong king position.


    Yes, I had to edit my post.  When I first saw this game I had been looking at bishop endgames where the theme was to sacrifice a pawn (or two) to make your bishop and king active... so I immediately had the impression that this was the "obvious" way to go.

    Although games are much harder than puzzles!

    I remember I got Morphy's famous opera game mate in a puzzle once and spent about 20 minutes before giving up :)  I think though that his opponent didn't find the best defensive moves, and so I was having a lot of trouble finding the point.

    Anyway, that's off topic, but yes, when you see the pattern it makes it easier to discover in your own games.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #22

    Elubas

    renumeratedfrog01 wrote:
    waffllemaster wrote:

    I remember some Shirov ones that really impressed me.  I wish I had saved those games.  Made me feel like a total beginner again... looking at his much smaller army and wondering how the hell he was winning so easily anyway

    I'm guessing you're looking for a sac like this... there's no immediate attack, or way to win the material back, but the other guy is miserable and can hardly improve his position.


    Yes, something like that. Those type of sacrifices are "unsound" as far as computer evaluation goes, but they're so devilishly complex that the opponent will rack his brains to counter them.  Tal and Shirov are very good examples of that...


    I disagree with you, actually. They can be unsound, but they can also be completely sound. I do believe that there are positions where it may take 20 moves to realize your advantage (meaning that the sacrifice isn't fully calculable), but it works because while your pieces build up, the opponent is too cramped to defend against every threat you throw at him. Kasparov played a game against Maia Chiburdanidze where he sacrificed a piece in a closed position; that attack literally took about 30 moves, because he had to organize pawn breaks and everything, but black was fairly helpless because her pieces were horrifically cramped and there was no way to free them.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #23

    Elubas

    waffllemaster wrote:
    Elubas wrote:

    No, it's actually a straightforward win -- the difficulty is considering the concept, because it's so striking. I actually played this position (it was a quiz) against a computer, without knowing the solution, and I just played normal moves, completely oblivious to ...Bh3 the entire time. What's funny is that even the computer never suggested the move. If you would have found this move, then you're a great player, because I didn't after taking plenty of time. Of course, it's easier once you have seen something like this before or are very familiar with the concept of doing anything to get a strong king position.



    I remember I got Morphy's famous opera game mate in a puzzle once and spent about 20 minutes before giving up :)  I think though that his opponent didn't find the best defensive moves, and so I was having a lot of trouble finding the point.

     


    And yet the Opera Game combination I was able to find :)

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #24

    waffllemaster

    Elubas wrote:
    waffllemaster wrote:
    Elubas wrote:

    No, it's actually a straightforward win -- the difficulty is considering the concept, because it's so striking. I actually played this position (it was a quiz) against a computer, without knowing the solution, and I just played normal moves, completely oblivious to ...Bh3 the entire time. What's funny is that even the computer never suggested the move. If you would have found this move, then you're a great player, because I didn't after taking plenty of time. Of course, it's easier once you have seen something like this before or are very familiar with the concept of doing anything to get a strong king position.



    I remember I got Morphy's famous opera game mate in a puzzle once and spent about 20 minutes before giving up :)  I think though that his opponent didn't find the best defensive moves, and so I was having a lot of trouble finding the point.

     


    And yet the Opera Game combination I was able to find :)


    Very nice! Smile

    When I looked up the solution I was like... wait a minute, I know this game lol

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #26

    waffllemaster

    Yes, magnificent game, the kind of game you think white must have screwed up... but somehow black is lost... makes me feel like a beginner who knows nothing, great game.

     

    pfren wrote:
    The correct answer is of course that in the proper position, Karpov would throw the kitchen sink to you...

    I was thinking this.   Let me (or anyone rated 600 points below him) play Karpov and you'll see some wild and crushing sacrifices.

    Heh, if we played enough games pfren you could probably produce some really pretty wins.

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #28

    Elubas

    waffllemaster wrote:

     

    pfren wrote:
    The correct answer is of course that in the proper position, Karpov would throw the kitchen sink to you...

    I was thinking this.   Let me (or anyone rated 600 points below him) play Karpov and you'll see some wild and crushing sacrifices.

    Heh, if we played enough games pfren you could probably produce some really pretty wins.


    Yeah. I think what some people don't realize is that a lot of the "dull" chess you may see when two grandmasters play each other are like that because they play wisely enough to keep their kings safe. I'm sure that both players are constantly rejecting all sorts of lines because they foresee the attacking opportunities of their opponent so well. The result is that neither side makes a mistake large enough for any of the crazy variations the grandmasters were dreaming up to actually occur on the board.

    Wafflemaster, all you would have to do is play a computer, and there would be plenty of fireworks :)

    And that Karpov game... that alone should convince everyone that Karpov was not shy about the sacrifice. The difference between him and Tal is that Tal would play any sacrifice; Karpov would only play the sound ones :)

    I just remembered another excellent example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKpE4knki8Y

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #29

    gabrielconroy

    I've been looking through some of Karpov's games as a result of this thread and came across this gem I hadn't seen before. I guess this isn't so much a sacrifical attack as just a strong tactical combination, but it's enjoyable to watch all the same.

     

    Karpov's calm, supremely positional style vs Topalov's aggression is always likely to yield an interesting game, and this one didn't disappoint.

     

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #30

    Elubas

    Something about his play just seems so tight, and yet he still plays brilliant tactical moves -- it's like you know that every time Karpov tries a sacrifice, it will work :)

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #31

    tonifa

    against Topalov Linares 1994 he sacrifice a piece during a couple of moves and he made a double exchange sacrifice during the game

  • 3 years ago · Quote · #32

    DaBigOne

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 3 years ago · Quote · #33

    renumeratedfrog01

    Sealed


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