How good was Tal?

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8th August 2009, 04:31pm
#21
by Tricklev
Gothenburg Sweden
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 902
Spiffe wrote:

(His plus score against Fischer notwithstanding; Tal's 4 victories against him were all when Fischer was 16.)


Fischers wins over Tal wasn't really when Tal was at his top either.

9th August 2009, 09:26am
#22
by JimLongo
Atlanta United States
Member Since: Jun 2009
Member Points: 5

I'm a novice and need help understanding.  I see why e4 is the right next move because the fork that would be created if Qex5, but why 11 Qex5.  I don't understand even though the position is in front of me.  There isn't much else, but wouldn't it be better not to sacrifice the white queen at this time?

Thanks,

Jim

9th August 2009, 09:34am
#23
by rooperi
Pretoria South Africa
Member Since: Mar 2009
Member Points: 3990

He was still good enough in 1988 to win the world Blitz championship...

After he died I remember somebody writing (approximately)"

He's sitting at the right hand of God, smoking, playing chess, and winning

I think he would have liked that...

11th August 2009, 09:41am
#24
by rkoelbach
Bonn area Germany
Member Since: Jul 2009
Member Points: 16
tonydal wrote:

All of this is true, but...has anyone actually looked at the accompanying position? (that title was just meant as a lead-in).


 Hello,

yes I did. In our vacation I studied his book about the WCH 1960 and needed a whole week for the first four games. I replayed and analyzed the games with a second board just in order to follow Tal´s brilliant side-variations. The one you posted was one of them. Fascinating. Simply fascinating how this guy could think and calculate.

btw Tal´s matchbook is a must have. It´s nearly as brilliant as his famous book "Life and Games of Mikhael Tal". Get these two, and yes, his last one, "Attack with Mikhael Tal" and you´re done.

11th August 2009, 09:50am
#25
by smartens
Nebraska United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 386

I also don't understand why black must play 11...Qxe5

11th August 2009, 09:54am
#26
by mkirk
United Kingdom
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 529

Tal is probably in the top 5 best players of all time!

And very exciting games , Nakamura has a similar style I think.

11th August 2009, 09:56am
#27
by NM Reb
Lisbon Portugal
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 4141
Tricklev wrote:
Spiffe wrote:

(His plus score against Fischer notwithstanding; Tal's 4 victories against him were all when Fischer was 16.)


Fischers wins over Tal wasn't really when Tal was at his top either.


 Is this correct ? Fischer won games against Tal in 62 and 63 I believe and Tal was champion in 61 ?  Certainly Tal was closer to his best when he lost to Fischer than Fischer was to his when he lost to Tal as a 16 year old.

11th August 2009, 09:56am
#28
by rkoelbach
Bonn area Germany
Member Since: Jul 2009
Member Points: 16
smartens wrote:

I also don't understand why black must play 11...Qxe5


 Hello,

look at the black Knight after White takes the black queen either with his pawn or the queen.

11th August 2009, 10:00am
#29
by rkoelbach
Bonn area Germany
Member Since: Jul 2009
Member Points: 16
Reb wrote:
Tricklev wrote:
Spiffe wrote:

(His plus score against Fischer notwithstanding; Tal's 4 victories against him were all when Fischer was 16.)


Fischers wins over Tal wasn't really when Tal was at his top either.


 Is this correct ? Fischer won games against Tal in 62 and 63 I believe and Tal was champion in 61 ?  Certainly Tal was closer to his best when he lost to Fischer than Fischer was to his when he lost to Tal as a 16 year old.


 Tal was often sick in those years. In terms of health he had good years and bad years right after 1960. For example in 1962 (in Curacao) he had to leave the Candidates Tournament before the last round - and to stay in hospital where Fischer and the others visited him. It was in this tournament when he lost badly to Fischer.

11th August 2009, 10:07am
#30
by NM Reb
Lisbon Portugal
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 4141
rkoelbach wrote:
Reb wrote:
Tricklev wrote:
Spiffe wrote:

(His plus score against Fischer notwithstanding; Tal's 4 victories against him were all when Fischer was 16.)


Fischers wins over Tal wasn't really when Tal was at his top either.


 Is this correct ? Fischer won games against Tal in 62 and 63 I believe and Tal was champion in 61 ?  Certainly Tal was closer to his best when he lost to Fischer than Fischer was to his when he lost to Tal as a 16 year old.


 Tal was often sick in those years. In terms of health he had good years and bad years right after 1960. For example in 1962 (in Curacao) he had to leave the Candidates Tournament before the last round - and to stay in hospital where Fischer and the others visited him. It was in this tournament when he lost badly to Fischer.


 Who visited Tal besides Fischer in the hospital ? I have read over the years that Fischer was the only one to visit him, which I always found rather sad. Oh, I also read that when Kasparov was jailed in Russia Karpov visited him in jail and what other GM visited him ? This is really amazing as I figured Kaspy and Karpov really dont like each other.

11th August 2009, 10:54am
#31
by Skwerly
Yucaipa, CA United States
Member Since: Jun 2009
Member Points: 582

Yea, no matter which way he takes the queen back, the N can check and gain back the material.  Obviously if QxB, the N fork works, but what if pawn takes bishop?

Then, the white bishop is actually pinned to the king, and Ne4+!! is just brutal.  Cool

14th August 2009, 10:42pm
#32
by rkoelbach
Bonn area Germany
Member Since: Jul 2009
Member Points: 16
Skwerly wrote:

Yea, no matter which way he takes the queen back, the N can check and gain back the material.  Obviously if QxB, the N fork works, but what if pawn takes bishop?

Then, the white bishop is actually pinned to the king, and Ne4+!! is just brutal. 


 Yes. Wasn´t he really a genius?

14th August 2009, 11:15pm
#33
by The_Brain9
Wisconsin United States
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 214
Reb wrote:
rkoelbach wrote:
Reb wrote:
Tricklev wrote:
Spiffe wrote:

(His plus score against Fischer notwithstanding; Tal's 4 victories against him were all when Fischer was 16.)


Fischers wins over Tal wasn't really when Tal was at his top either.


 Is this correct ? Fischer won games against Tal in 62 and 63 I believe and Tal was champion in 61 ?  Certainly Tal was closer to his best when he lost to Fischer than Fischer was to his when he lost to Tal as a 16 year old.


 Tal was often sick in those years. In terms of health he had good years and bad years right after 1960. For example in 1962 (in Curacao) he had to leave the Candidates Tournament before the last round - and to stay in hospital where Fischer and the others visited him. It was in this tournament when he lost badly to Fischer.


 Who visited Tal besides Fischer in the hospital ? I have read over the years that Fischer was the only one to visit him, which I always found rather sad. Oh, I also read that when Kasparov was jailed in Russia Karpov visited him in jail and what other GM visited him ? This is really amazing as I figured Kaspy and Karpov really dont like each other.


Yes, a shame no one else visited Tal in the hospital. I believe I read how some of the other players in the tournament were talking bad about Bobby, saying he didn't respect Tal (Bobby always said Tal's play was unsound) when he was the only one who visited Tal! I also find it interesting that Karpov was the only (?) GM to visit Kasparov. I would have thought their rivarly for about a million years would have soured their relationship. However, I think they were both better people than that -- not allowing their battles over the chess board turn into battles in real life. It also makes me wonder, what changed from the ambitious, young, caring Fischer of the 1960's to the anti-semitic, anti-American Fischer of the '90's (at least, that's the first time he made his anti-semitism public).

15th August 2009, 12:41am
#34
by kunduk
kolkata India
Member Since: Feb 2009
Member Points: 871

TAL was a genius, & so was FISCHER.. we actually cant compare the two.. they both were uncomparable.

18th October 2009, 04:49am
#35
by dnleary
Hobart Australia
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 311

So Tal lost this game? Or is this just a variation he had in mind?

18th October 2009, 10:01am
#36
by philidor_position
United States
Member Since: May 2009
Member Points: 515
tonydal wrote:

I've just been going through Tal's account of his 1960 championship match with Botvinnik.  The following possible variation arose in one of the games:

 

 


I have nothing against Tal, of course he is one of the best players of all time, but his story in the annotations seem somewhat hard to believe... most of the moves weren't even forced. am I the only one to raise an eyebrow?

22nd October 2009, 10:59pm
#37
by NM tonydal
United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 4679

So Tal lost this game? Or is this just a variation he had in mind?


The game was a draw (yes, the diagram was just a variation):

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032534

22nd October 2009, 11:04pm
#38
by NM tonydal
United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 4679
philidor_position wrote:

I have nothing against Tal, of course he is one of the best players of all time, but his story in the annotations seem somewhat hard to believe... most of the moves weren't even forced. am I the only one to raise an eyebrow?


The moves may not have seemed to be forced, but I believe they were optimum.  Anyway, I share your astonishment...it just shows that in the realm of combination, there has hardly ever been anyone who is the peer of Tal.

23rd October 2009, 06:53am
#39
by NM Reb
Lisbon Portugal
Member Since: Sep 2007
Member Points: 4141

Tal won the USSR championship 6 times, only Botvinnik won as many and none have won it more than 6 times. Tal is one of the most popular players ever mainly due to his style of play. He did not play boring chess and the complications/storms he created on the board thrilled chess fans all over the world.

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