I personally think Kramnik bored Kasparov to death. One of the reason why he quit the sport. Seriously, kramnik's style may be boring but it does win games.
Once in a while, he does play interesting games.
I'm not sure what you mean to say those three did less. Kramnik has to be right up there as far as players trying to do good for chess. If it were up to Kasparov we would still have a split with him hand picking opponents. If it were up to Anand (very nice guy though he is) he would just as soon have a tournament decide the WC each cycle. Topalov? well don't even get me started.
...................................................... Fischer did allot for chess by virtue of his being American and playing a Russian in the WC. But neither Fischer Karpov nor Kasparov ever put others in chess nearly as close to their own self interest as Kramnik did.
As far as being more excitement from KK events in the 80s I'm not sure. Certainly then the WC cycle was much much healthier. FIDE has done allot of damage to the WC title so I would think there was more interest then. But I doubt it was because of fewer short draws or something like that. I haven't compared short draws but I think you will find quite a few in those KK matches. Even in the Kasparov Kramnik match most of the short draws happened when Kasparov had white.
I simply mean that "those three" had played a lot of chess matches and tournaments too and they never avoides strong competition, risks and danger...
That awful Kasparov of yours has played -IN GREAT STYLE- five matches against Anatoly Karpov in seven years! The last three already being WC! I can't count how many official matches Karpov had played between 1986 and 1996, I only know that Victor Korchnoi had played ten official matches from 1975 until 1983! But let's admit that they did so (in superb offensive or defensive or offensive-defensive style) because they were obliged to... How many strong tournaments did they win ... and ... how?!? It's not at all difficult to find all their "short draws", on the contrary it would be very ... exciting!!!
Finally I have to say that Vladimir Kramik is following the worst tradition left by Lasker, Capablanca, Botvinnik and Petrosian: they didn't play often AS WORLD CHAMPIONS and -as a consequence- their results were often relatively poor...
But Lasker did that at the beginning of the twentieth century pursuing Mathematics (and scientific prestige) when chess was less respectable than sciences... Capablanca was perhaps either "lazy" (a minimal original contribution to the theory of openings) or had a lack of motivation... Botvinnik became WC after the disaster of WW II and when he was 40+...
I can not find any excuses for Petrosian and Kramnik, especially after the (F)_K-K-K era.
You do understand that you are referring to matches organized by FIDE before Kasparov decided to split. Kasparov and Karpov had no real choice but to play the matches you mention. I totally agree that those were the great days of chess! That was when we had a great WC cycle and great matches. Kramnik has stated and repeatedly asked that FIDE return to that sort of cycle again. Unfortunately he seems to be one of the few in with clout asking for it. Nowadays players are fine ducking eachother in tournaments and not really playing head to head matches.
If you want to really thank Kasparov you need to thank him for the things he had control over. That would be what happened due to his decision to split from FIDE and the matches he played (and as more commonly occured those that fell through) after that. In other words thank him that the golden age of chess world championships is over.
This is just a fact.
Kramnik is not loved. He had the out and out nerve to beat Kasparov in a match. What an insolent child. Some will never forgive him for this sin. But when you read what the players say you will see he is perhaps the only top player pushing for a return to those days we, as fans, still long for. I think Gelfand and Leko are others.
Yeah Dortmund was disappointing. I'm not so worried about his first loss he will take the rook next time. But this latter blunder... it shows even he needs to train with endings to play them perfect. Everyone can cheer for who they want. But for me I will cheer for someone who shows integrity and wants to create a truly great championship cycle. Anand has the former but fails on the latter count.
niceforkinmove
You obviously make some point and this is good!
But I do also... and this is not...
I think that Kramnik was much more enthusiastic and energetic before 1999, then he gave to chess world great and promising performances and a few wonderful victories against Garry! I pointed out a Petrosian variation in the KID and a crushing Meran variation! I only was expecting for him to follow the steps of Anatoly Karpov or a Kramnik version of this, not Petrosian's path...
Kramnik's Style
Hmmm. We could ask Kramnik's team for details of his preparation for his upcoming match against Anand. And, they could tell us. BUT THEN THEY'D HAVE TO KILL US!
My apologies to KillaBeez for my sharpness and my exageration...
Of course we can not disagree with Kramnik or Short (and many-many others) about the estimation of a position or an opening etc. Namely we can but it would be meaningless and stupid. The estimation on a chess position it's not a matter of democracy!...
Of course we are not obliged to follow their advices about e.g. some opening variation: they may make some "strong point" but they would be useless if we don't understand and don't Know what to do!... After all chess is not maths!
I believe that my original question is of a very different character...
oginschile wrote: There is certainly no doubt Kramnik is one of the great players of all time. I do wish he would play for wins more often, but the genius of his play is certainly beautiful in its own right. Here is by far my favorite Kramnik game, played at a faster time control against Kasparov...
There is certainly no doubt Kramnik is one of the great players of all time. I do wish he would play for wins more often, but the genius of his play is certainly beautiful in its own right.
Here is by far my favorite Kramnik game, played at a faster time control against Kasparov...
That was a beautiful game.
about the "lack of fighting spirit" and "boring" style of Kramnik... I've recently watched his ChessBase video lectures "my rise to the top", and he analyses several of his games of the WC match with Kasparov. I was truly amazed how much of a serious positional fight there was going on around the board, the outposts, better pawn structure, better piece, "slightly better endgame," etc. It's no where near boring, It was a tremendously deep struggle for both sides, us patzers just can't see it because we lack the necessary understanding of those concepts and calculation. I enjoyed watching that analysis more than I did when I was watching the crazy Tal stuff. It's just a strong fight as a tactical one, only different. If I had the chance to have the style of any GM, it would be somewhere between Karpov-Petrosian and Kramnik instead of Tal-Kasparov-Topalov. It's just a matter of preference and personality.
there are too many patzers giving their opinion in this forum. the fact that Kramnik was last in the dortmund tournament was seen as 'beginning of the end' of his career. These guys don't know anything about chess.
before the important match against Anand, kramnik experimentated, relaxed, and surely didn't play with full pace. That is, what most GMs would do in his place.
and that is precisely what happened to Anand in Bilbao.
about the "lack of fighting spirit" and "boring" style of Kramnik...
It's no where near boring, It was a tremendously deep struggle for both sides, us patzers just can't see it because we lack the necessary understanding of those concepts and calculation.
......
If I had the chance to have the style of any GM, it would be somewhere between Karpov-Petrosian and Kramnik instead of Tal-Kasparov-Topalov. It's just a matter of preference and personality.
Anatoly Karpov's "style" or "fighting program" seems different from that of Kasparov or Alekhine BUT it was far beyond Botvinnik's, Petrosian's or his followers... Karpov -and Korchnoi- was playing "positionally" of course but in order to kill the competition, crush eventually the opponents!
Please, DO NOT COMPARE Vladimir Kramnik with some patzer like me (I do not!) or even with Akopian, Anthony Miles, Ivan Sokolov, Khalifman and Shirov! Do not compare Petrosian only with Larsen, Stein, the late Georgi Tringov or even Geller, compare him with Korchnoi and Bobby... Compare Vladimir with Karpov and Kasparov!
Hopefully I 'll make some time in order to share some thoughts about Korchnoi's great living example and deeply beneficial influence!!!
I'm a big fan of Kramnik, Petrosian, and Karpov -- but I think it's a stretch to think they have similar styles as Fischer, Kasparov, Shirov, and Korchnoi.
Hey, whatever happened to Mecking?
Whats strange (for me) concerning Kramnik and his rise to the top of chess is that he lost a match to Shirov which was to determine Kasparov's challenger. However, Shirov didnt get to play Kasparov but Kramnik did inspite of the fact that Kramnik lost the match to Shirov and didnt manage to win a single game against Shirov. To make things even stranger Kasparov then lost to Kramnik without winning a single game but Kasparov has NEVER lost to Shirov whom Kramnik just lost to in a match and didnt win a game. Then there are the games of the Kasparov/Kramnik match......anyone who looks at these games can clearly see that Kasparov was not trying to win this match. ( we all have different theories to why he wasnt) Now, Kramnik fans/defenders can look at all this and not see ANYTHING wrong with this picture?! Then there is the cheating accusations of the toilet gate match/scandal with Topalov.......again Kramnik is defended all round and Topalov is the "goat". What will happen in the match with Anand ? Here is my prediction : If Kramnik is never in any danger of losing this match there will be nothing strange happening, but if Anand should take an early lead and threaten to beat Kramnik watch for some sort of questionable scandals and accusations against Anand. Ofcourse Anand will be the "goat" should such a thing happen, yet again.
uhmm, Reb, question? You said in your prediction that if Kramnik is never in any danger of losing this match there will be nothing strange happening...Isn't it that Kramnik led 2-0 in his match against Topalov and that Silvio Danailov is the one that insisted that Kramnik cheated? Are you saying that if Kramnik trails 2-0, for example, against Anand, Kramnik will cry 'foul'? Could you please clarify, I think I misunderstood you. Thanks.
I wrote something quite different ... and in a clear manner as I had hoped!...
Actually, I used to think he was a total snore festival--until I came across the following (unbelievable) game:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1085652
(By the way, if 19 Qxh6 Rxc2+ mates rather amazingly.)
Have you seen what Kramnik is doing in todays game?it's just amazing,really not like him
In this forum, all the people who don't know much about POSITIONAL PLAY have gathered to beat on a common target, which they have found it in Kramnik. All the dirty accusations against him, and his side, of the past :
........
Shame .
STOP THE ACCUSATIONS.
Dear Mandel, be precise please, use quotations if you like, don't use accusations in general!
By the way: I can not realize why K-supporters (with apologies to Victor, Anatoly and Garry!!!) are not writing in this very topic THE VERY LAST DAYS...
I admire Alexander Alekhine (the chessman, not the citizen) and I'm saying this despite his 1935-defeat from Euwe and his other errors... I also respect very much J. R. Capablanca despite his 1927-defeat and his "conservative" approach to the "game" of chess, I also respect very much the great thinker Aron Nimzowitsch and I love his wonderful creation, "His System"!!!!! But 2008 is neither 1922 nor 1929 nor 1934 (Alekhine's fatal error to avoid die-hard competition which was his only shelter!... as Capa's too!...) nor 1958 nor 1964 nor 1967 etc. 2,008 comes after F-K-K-K superb era and even after 1984's HUMAN mistakes which were corrected in time, e.g. next year or even instantly!
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