Permutations & Combinations

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2nd August 2009, 07:25am
#1
by prashanth21
hyderabad India
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 1406

In chess960 there are 960 starting positions but i couldnot able to solve theroticaly with the help of permuations.

Both sides(BLACK & WHITE) are same we take only side and we don't consider pawns also.

There are 8 pieces in the board, we can arrange in them in 8! ways.

Since Rooks,Bishops and Knight are repeating then we get 8!/(2!2!2!)=5040.

I am not geting 960 variations?

any MATHEMETICIAN legend help me to solve.

2nd August 2009, 07:27am
#2
by Nytik
Southampton United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 4657

You have to remove the positions where both bishops are on the same colour squares, and where the king isn't between both rooks.

2nd August 2009, 07:31am
#3
by prashanth21
hyderabad India
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 1406
Nytik wrote:

You have to remove the positions where both bishops are on the same colour squares, and where the king isn't between both rooks.


 How to consider these limitaions like King comes always between the rooks

2nd August 2009, 07:54am
#4
by steevmartuns
Pennsylvania United States
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 526

Lemme give it a try.

4 spots for the first Bishop (light sq's)

4 for the second Bishop (dark sq's)

6 spots for the Queen.

5 spots for the first Knight

4 spots for the second Knight

Since these N's are not distinct, we divide by 2

R/K/R occupy the remaining three squares in that order, so we leave 'em out of the probabilities.

(4*4*4*6*5) / 2 = 960

 

Is this mathematically correct?

2nd August 2009, 07:56am
#5
by Nytik
Southampton United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 4657

It is indeed. Congratulations! Smile

2nd August 2009, 08:04am
#6
by xbigboy
Minnesota United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 2869
steevmartuns wrote:

Lemme give it a try.

4 spots for the first Bishop (light sq's)

4 for the second Bishop (dark sq's)

6 spots for the Queen.

5 spots for the first Knight

4 spots for the second Knight

Since these N's are not distinct, we divide by 2

R/K/R occupy the remaining three squares in that order, so we leave 'em out of the probabilities.

(4*4*4*6*5) / 2 = 960

 

Is this mathematically correct?


 Is this the method chess.com uses?

2nd August 2009, 08:09am
#7
by Nytik
Southampton United Kingdom
Member Since: May 2008
Member Points: 4657
xbigboy wrote:
steevmartuns wrote:

Lemme give it a try.

4 spots for the first Bishop (light sq's)

4 for the second Bishop (dark sq's)

6 spots for the Queen.

5 spots for the first Knight

4 spots for the second Knight

Since these N's are not distinct, we divide by 2

R/K/R occupy the remaining three squares in that order, so we leave 'em out of the probabilities.

(4*4*4*6*5) / 2 = 960

 

Is this mathematically correct?


 Is this the method chess.com uses?


Huh? What are you talking about? This isn't a 'method'. Chess.com have no need to find this number- it is in the name of the game. (Chess960). Simply put, they will have a database of 960 possible positions, and at the start of the game one is randomly picked.

2nd August 2009, 08:13am
#8
by TadDude
Canada
Member Since: Jan 2008
Member Points: 1010
xbigboy wrote:
steevmartuns wrote:

Lemme give it a try.

4 spots for the first Bishop (light sq's)

4 for the second Bishop (dark sq's)

6 spots for the Queen.

5 spots for the first Knight

4 spots for the second Knight

Since these N's are not distinct, we divide by 2

R/K/R occupy the remaining three squares in that order, so we leave 'em out of the probabilities.

(4*4*4*6*5) / 2 = 960

 

Is this mathematically correct?


 Is this the method chess.com uses?


It is a calculation. If it is correct, it is correct everywhere.

This explains the calculation slightly differently. It may be more easily understood.

"The product 4 x 4 x 6 x 10 gives you 960, the total number of starting positions. The first 4 stands for the number of possible squares for the light-square Bishop (b, d, f & h), and the second 4 for the dark-square Bishop (a, c, e & g). The 6 stands for the number of squares available for the Queen, and the 10 for the number of KeRN codes (legal Fischer combinations of Knights, Rooks and the King). See the KeRN table below. 

KeRN Codes:

0 N N R K R   (Knight, Knight, Rook, King, Rook)

1 N R N K R   (Knight, Rook, Knight, King, Rook)

2 N R K N R   (and so on...)

3 N R K R N

4 R N N K R

5 R N K N R

6 R N K R N

7 R K N N R

8 R K N R N

9 R K R N N"

2nd August 2009, 09:59am
#9
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 809

As a side note, the 10 KeRN codes are equivalent to placing the two knights in the five spaces remaining after placing the bishops and the queen.* After the knights are placed, there is only one way to place the king and the rooks, since there are only three spaces left and the king must be in between the rooks.

* five choose two = 5! / (2! * 3!) = 120 / (2 * 6) = 120 / 12 = 10.

2nd August 2009, 01:39pm
#10
by xbigboy
Minnesota United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 2869
Nytik wrote:
xbigboy wrote:
steevmartuns wrote:

Lemme give it a try.

4 spots for the first Bishop (light sq's)

4 for the second Bishop (dark sq's)

6 spots for the Queen.

5 spots for the first Knight

4 spots for the second Knight

Since these N's are not distinct, we divide by 2

R/K/R occupy the remaining three squares in that order, so we leave 'em out of the probabilities.

(4*4*4*6*5) / 2 = 960

 

Is this mathematically correct?


 Is this the method chess.com uses?


Huh? What are you talking about? This isn't a 'method'. Chess.com have no need to find this number- it is in the name of the game. (Chess960). Simply put, they will have a database of 960 possible positions, and at the start of the game one is randomly picked.


 I mean, does chess.com pick the light bishop, then dark, then Queen, etc.?

2nd August 2009, 02:17pm
#11
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 809
xbigboy wrote:

 I mean, does chess.com pick the light bishop, then dark, then Queen, etc.?


I doubt it. The memory required to store all 960 possible positions is minimal, so it would be simpler and quicker just to generate one random number and pick from the list. Unless you didn't want to deal with external data access, in which case placing each piece individually would probably be the easiest way to hard code it.

2nd August 2009, 02:24pm
#12
by xbigboy
Minnesota United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 2869
ichabod801 wrote:
xbigboy wrote:

 I mean, does chess.com pick the light bishop, then dark, then Queen, etc.?


I doubt it. The memory required to store all 960 possible positions is minimal, so it would be simpler and quicker just to generate one random number and pick from the list. Unless you didn't want to deal with external data access, in which case placing each piece individually would probably be the easiest way to hard code it.


 Ok...

2nd August 2009, 04:23pm
#13
by johnmartin
London United Kingdom
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 48

I'm not into chess960, but does the 960 variations include all possible variations including the usual set up? If so may be it should be called chess959 as I don't think the usual set up is included.

2nd August 2009, 04:59pm
#14
by RyanMK
Iowa United States
Member Since: Jun 2008
Member Points: 2277

The original position IS included, you have a 1/960 chance of getting it.

2nd August 2009, 07:10pm
#15
by xbigboy
Minnesota United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 2869

anyone care to catalogue the 960 different positions here?

2nd August 2009, 07:46pm
#16
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 809

Here's a link to a list of all 960 positions as FEN strings:

http://www.chessvariants.com/diffsetup.dir/fischer-random-fen.html

2nd August 2009, 07:50pm
#17
by AnthonyCG
Washington DC United States
Member Since: Aug 2007
Member Points: 2799
RyanMK wrote:

The original position IS included, you have a 1/960 chance of getting it.


How funny would that be lol.
2nd August 2009, 07:56pm
#18
by ichabod801
Maryland United States
Member Since: Dec 2008
Member Points: 809
AnthonyCG wrote:
RyanMK wrote:

The original position IS included, you have a 1/960 chance of getting it.


 

How funny would that be lol.

I'm playing a game right now where the only difference is the king's rook is swapped with the king's bishop. It's interesting, because it's like being able to play the standard game, but with a quick king side fianchetto.

3rd August 2009, 04:22am
#19
by xbigboy
Minnesota United States
Member Since: Oct 2007
Member Points: 2869
ichabod801 wrote:

Here's a link to a list of all 960 positions as FEN strings:

http://www.chessvariants.com/diffsetup.dir/fischer-random-fen.html


 did NOT see that coming lol...

3rd August 2009, 06:36am
#20
by Scarblac
Arnhem Netherlands
Member Since: Nov 2008
Member Points: 1831
446919 wrote: Who in the world has enough time to list all the fischer random positions!?!?

 We should invent machines that can do repetitive tasks like that for us.

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