Forums

Your honest opinions about Shogi?

Sort:
charles_butternucker

I'm not exactly new to Chess, but I thought it might be fun trying something else for a change...

First of all, learning the characters on the pieces wouldn't be really considered a challenge, since I'm always motivated to train my memorization skills. Smile

But from what I saw, it seems to be many times more complex and tactical than Chess, and I'm afraid it would take me forever to ever score a win against any decent player. If the learning curve for a total beginner (well, I roughly know the rules already, but never once played a game) is too steep, I'll stick to Chess instead of eventually getting fed up with it ... Anyone got some experience to share?

Murgen

It's worth having a go. There are a number of sites where you can play it.

There is literature in English available on it. There are at least a couple of books of tsume shogi (mating problems) that aren't too expensive, both are worth having (though the French one uses some hybrid symbols to represent the pieces, and some of the puzzles in it are wrong).

If you do have the time to do both you may find that playing shogi helps you find obscure checkmates in chess more easily. :)

Kingdom_Hearts

Well when we first played I was getting killed by your gameplay, I think I have improved a bit from our last game. ;) Anyone can improve, the question is, do you want to?

Sqod

I was interested in shogi for a while. I bought a nice board made of pine and I really liked the look of the board and the fact that I was experiencing part of Japanese culture. But after several months I gave up on it entirely, for several reasons:

(1) Those pieces marked with script are too darned hard to identify quickly. In chess the shapes are usually obvious so you can concentrate on the moves instead of on identifying pieces.

(2) I couldn't find anybody to play with, at least not easily. That was in the days before the Internet, so you can imagine that there are going to be few players with the patience and interest in playing some little-known Asian game in America.

(3) The piece moves were annoying. As I recall, the lances could only point forward and move forward, which seemed ridiculous, far less powerful and less logical than rooks.

(4) The pieces didn't coordinate as I expected them to. In chess the pawns interact and you can get a feel for how they function together, but I never got to that point in shogi.

I brought my shogi board to a chess tournament once to see if anybody knew how to play and wanted to play. Only the tournament director knew how to play, and he beat me very quickly. He tried to explain some heuristics to me, as somebody would do in chess, but he was absolutely wasting his time because I was still at the level of trying to remember how the pieces moved. It was like learning chess all over again. The only thing I really learned from that was an appreciation for extreme beginners in chess: until the movement of the pieces and their interactions become second nature (not to mention even being able to identify a piece!), it's pointless to point out generalities and wisdom to the player.

charles_butternucker
Kingdom_Hearts wrote:

Well when we first played I was getting killed by your gameplay, I think I have improved a bit from our last game. ;) Anyone can improve, the question is, do you want to?

Oh no, now my cover is blown, lol!!! Wink

Yeah, if the labor-reward ratio is reasonable enough, meaning that you actually enjoy what you're doing, self-improvement will just follow suit.

Nettomb

6 months already, so I don't know if that's still relevant. Anyway, I'll give my opinion.

First of all, it's necessary to undo some misconceptions based on first impressions by Sqod.

(1) Those pieces marked with script are too darned hard to identify quickly. In chess the shapes are usually obvious so you can concentrate on the moves instead of on identifying pieces.


I concede that shogi pieces are harder to identify, even for those used with it. Yet, I can say that in little time you'll be concentrating on moves only, rather than trying to identify pieces... trust me.

(2) I couldn't find anybody to play with, at least not easily. That was in the days before the Internet, so you can imagine that there are going to be few players with the patience and interest in playing some little-known Asian game in America.

I imagine that in most places it will still be difficult to find someone to play if FtF, but on the internet, there is a lot of places you can find opponents. Try 81Dojo first.


(3) The piece moves were annoying. As I recall, the lances could only point forward and move forward, which seemed ridiculous, far less powerful and less logical than rooks.

Wow. Less logical than rooks? Chess pieces on have logical moves on the context of chess. There is a piece that moves exactly like the rook in shogi; the lance is just a different piece with a different function. Anyone who has played shogi for some time knows that the lance has a fundamental role in protecting edges and in later attacks. It's all about patterns. There are multiple variants of shogi, like in chess. The 9x9 version became the most popular ("oficial"), exactly because of the balance between its pieces which create patterns that favours a dynamic game to the end.

(4) The pieces didn't coordinate as I expected them to. In chess the pawns interact and you can get a feel for how they function together, but I never got to that point in shogi.

As expected? You're trying to translate your chess experience to shogi. Pawns have different functions in chess and Shogi. In shogi they serve as a barrier to prevent invasion of your territory. They don't create a chain as in chess and they aren't as fundamental to the endgame, even because every piece can promote. To the contrary, in Shogi pieces must coordinate all the time. Castles are much more complex and varied patterns of coordinated pieces than chess castle; Attacks must have origin on a base ("a bridgehead") on enemy territory, which consists of one or more pieces working together. Rarely will you be able to attack with a single piece, like in chess.

What makes shogi difficult for a chess player isn't japanese characters. Trust me, you can very quickly learn them. They are just a couple of shapes associated with move rules. A child approach helps a lot. Most of us didn't stop to study chess pieces when we where kids. Begin to play and learn by use. You'll be surprised how, after a couple of games, piece's moves will become second nature.

Then, what makes it difficult? Drops! This creates a new dimension with which chess players aren't used. But, then again, just begin playing and you'll see that some patterns will begin to repeat. Do as in chess: practice mate problems. They are fun and will have you internalize the necessary patterns. Good news are that openings aren't as determinant as in chess, even if studying opening traps is useful, since material imbalance can be determinant in the beginning of the game; not so much in the end.

What will you gain by learning Shogi? Well, this may be personal, but the greatest advantages of Shogi, IMHO, are the fact that most games must be played to the end; a lot of endgames finish in a trilling fight for mate and "turns around" are very common. In opposition to chess, in which being a knight up can decide the game, in Shogi material loses value as game progresses and position becomes determinant. You'll have to sacrifice in order to mate, most of the time. Do it inefficiently, and your opponent can have the oportunity to counter-attack.

Try it. You have nothing to lose. The least I can say is that it will be an enriching experience even for those who will keep western chess as their main variant. It has already been shown that shogi players have a greater facility to see tactical patterns in a chess game, after adapting.

A great place to begin are Hidetchi's videos on youtube. 81Dojo to play "real time" and littlegolem to play by turn.

final_wars

I made a game and studied many variants of the ancient game (original source) when doing so.

The game is called Final Wars and the website is www.finalwars.com

The two major influences on my game were Shogi and Fischer Random.

My opinion on Shogi

1. Oriental script is a barrier, most western players will not learn it.

2. Opening theory is worse than chess, Japanese are very traditional people and they play the same openings that have been played for centuries

3. Dropping captured pieces back into the game is based on captured Samuri switching allegence to another Warlord when captured (to avoid execution) and leads to very long games.

4. Focus of piece movement is Forward, leads to strange situations in that draws occur when you move your King into your opponents side of the board (dropped pieces cannot attack your King as most only move forward)

5. Opening strategy [Defense] is to build a castle (confuses with chess, I prefer to call it a fortress) King walks to one side of board and is surounded by pieces, this is due to the nature of the game regarding drops when attacking

6. Opening strategy [Attack] focuses on one of the long range units, either the [rook] with a pawn advance on the h file or the [bishop] on the a1-i9 diagonal

7. Pawns move AND capture directly forward, a big change for chess players, changes the entire game, pawns basically steamroll up the board

8. Complicated promotion rules (I won't bore you with the details) no promotion rank, you have a promotion zone (last 3 ranks) and promotion is optional if the piece can still move but mandatory if the piece can no longer move

9. Drops are not really restricted much, you can basically drop anywhere, some rules are: cannot create doubled pawns when deploying, cannot deliver checkmate when deploying a pawn, so very much like bughouse - drops all over the place 

10. Large body of study published in Japan, virtually none of it translated or published in the west

11. A Japanese game based on tradition that in my opinion will probably never become popular (played by many people) in the west

My game has a main 9x9 board just like Shogi and 2 side boards just like Shogi but Shogi was not the reason for this.

My board is 9x9 as more space was needed for the drops, it does not work on a 8x8 board.

The 2 side boards in my game are used for the random game queue at the start of the game, they are not used for captured pieces.

HGMuller

The kanji pieces are indeed a pain, and it is the main thing that is holding back popularity of Shogi outside of Japan. Although recognizing the pieces is easy after some time, using them to play a game is a disaster. I mostly watch games in a Chess-like representation:

swaggyPmGee

shogi is really fun and learning pieces gets pretty easy if you make little tricks for yourself. i feel like the beginning is a bit less cramped than chess

RebeccaLoran

Shogi is an amazing game.

 

Here are a few mistakes in thinking that lead to people not enjoying shogi.

 

a) I should use a western style board because I'm used to chess

 

Shogi is a Japanese game. You wouldn't play western chess on an othello board or with toy soldiers, would you? Learn the traditional way of playing.

 

b) I just need to memorize the pieces

Okay this is a bit of a weird one for me, since I've studied Japanese a number of years and am a bit biased, but I really think calling all the pieces by their English translation and memorizing what they look like instead of just learning their Japanese readings is an odd thing to do.

 

c) it's crazyhouse

 

Shogi is not crazyhouse. Shogi is shogi.

 

SEvans86

It's crazyhouse. grin.png

Arpan90

For those interested in a chess variant very near to shogi i.e. with piece promotions(not just pawn promotions), three-rank promotion zone, option of dropping captured pieces:

Shogun chess on pychess.org is a good game

The game starts with standard chess setup. The Queen is the only standard chess piece that is considered a promoted piece, and when dropped after a capture, it assumes its unpromoted form: Duchess.

georgez
Arpan90 escreveu:

For those interested in a chess variant very near to shogi i.e. with piece promotions(not just pawn promotions), three-rank promotion zone, option of dropping captured pieces:

Shogun chess on pychess.org is a good game

The game starts with standard chess setup. The Queen is the only standard chess piece that is considered a promoted piece, and when dropped after a capture, it assumes its unpromoted form: Duchess.

Cool!

KiwiStoic

I will add my voice to the others - it really is not difficult to learn the Shogi pieces.

Sure, you will blunder at first while you are getting the hang of it - same as learning a language or anything else. But after just a few games where you make some painful mistake, the pieces (and their movements) will become hard-wired into your brain.

I would say if you play online for 1 hour for 3 days, you will "see" the Japanese pieces no trouble at all. Those who say it is "impossible" have simply given up too easily.

ToveriJuri

What is faster at conveying visual information, written text or clear images/three dimensional shapes? Shogi pieces might not be difficult to learn if you want to learn them, but I'm not convinced that identifying pieces mid game is as efficient as it can be with chess pieces.

Test it out yourself. Look at a mid game position for Shogi for under a second and try to memorize the position. Now do the same for chess.

SEvans86

I think it's very similer to crazyhouse, but a bit more complex.

ChecksOffender

I'm gonna be honest I like shogi more than chess, though that may change as the novelty wears off...

Pagni1

shogi is more of a chess game than chess! The goal of the game of shogi is checkmate. in chess, in most games it is enough to break the pieces (as in checkers :-) or to reach the transformation line with a pawn (which ends the game in 99%) so where is the mate game :-)

ChessShogi

Shogi is possibly one of the greatest games ever invented by humans. In fact, I like it even more than Chess at this point. The drop rule gives this game an advantage over chess in terms of fairness, as no piece ever goes out of play, and you never know what will happen until the very end. This leads to some beautiful checkmates patterns, such as those on lishogi's training mix. However, it can also give an advantage to defense over offense, so to fix that, Shogi has a forward bias in most of its piece moves.

My advice for new players:

  1. Don't give up. It's very likely you will lose on the first try (I know I did). But that is no reason to shut the game out of your life. Shogi is the kind of game where a simple mistake can have a huge impact on the game. In fact, during an average game, the balance of power will shift several times because of this. Give Shogi a chance. I promise you won't regret it.
  2. Don't buy a Western set! This makes it harder to play if you play someone who has a traditional set. Instead look for a Shogi study set. These study sets will have the traditional pieces names plus diagrams of how they move, which makes it easier to translate them to a normal Shogi board.
  3. Think of the kanji as symbols, not letters. Thinking of them as the latter tends to prime us to try to divine their meaning, which makes them more intimidating. Like with the shapes of Chess pieces, the kanji on the Shogi pieces are abstract shapes, and they don't really relate to what the pieces do or how they move, so thinking of them as symbols makes it easier to learn the pieces.
  4. Drops are half the game. Chess players are usually not used to drops, so they often make poor use of them, but drops are quite literally the defining feature of Shogi. If you have pieces in your hand, it's a good idea to use them.

If you want to get started online, I would recommend 81dojo or lishogi.com.

BoardMonkey

I don't understand how to use Shogi pawns. They don't support each other like chess pawns can.