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The Communist Utopia


  • 6 months ago · #61

    trysts

    electricpawn wrote:

    I had a discussion with a guy in the maintenance dept. of a factory where I used to work. He argued that everyone in a company shouls be paid the same amount of money. I disagreed because everyone does not contribute equally. I asked him where the incentive to work harder or come up with new ways of doing things would come from if everyone were paid the same regardless of performance. He didn't have an answer.

    I don't know if money is an incentive to work harder or to be creative, for many people? I don't know if a monetary reward for hard work or creativity is necessary?

    Edited to add: Perhaps if people are taught the ideal of a greater good when they are young then the reward for hard work and creativity would be communal appreciation?

  • 6 months ago · #62

    zborg

    There is no Left remaining in America, even Alan Blinder can tell you that.

  • 6 months ago · #63

    bigpoison

    As much as I like electricity, I gotta' agree with trysts on this one.  I do so much unpaid work it isn't even funny.

    Why do I do it?  Because it needs to get done.

  • 6 months ago · #64

    trysts

    bigpoison wrote:

    As much as I like electricity, I gotta' agree with trysts on this one.  I do so much unpaid work it isn't even funny.

    Why do I do it?  Because it needs to get done.

    True. Some of the highest paid people where I work do not work nearly as hard as those who don't make as much money. Also, of those who do make pretty much equivalent money some of them just work harder "because it just needs to get done".

  • 6 months ago · #65

    Crazychessplaya

    [COMMENT DELETED]
  • 6 months ago · #66

    macer75

    zborg wrote:

    There is no Left remaining in America, even Alan Blinder can tell you that.

    Um... Obama? Hillary Clinton? Al Sharpton? Eric Holder? If there really was no left then those people wouldn't exist, and America would be so much better off.

  • 6 months ago · #67

    bigpoison

    Turn the radio off, dude.

  • 6 months ago · #68

    macer75

    trysts wrote:
    electricpawn wrote:

    I had a discussion with a guy in the maintenance dept. of a factory where I used to work. He argued that everyone in a company shouls be paid the same amount of money. I disagreed because everyone does not contribute equally. I asked him where the incentive to work harder or come up with new ways of doing things would come from if everyone were paid the same regardless of performance. He didn't have an answer.

    I don't know if money is an incentive to work harder or to be creative, for many people? I don't know if a monetary reward for hard work or creativity is necessary?

    Edited to add: Perhaps if people are taught the ideal of a greater good when they are young then the reward for hard work and creativity would be communal appreciation?

    Ain't gonna work. I would rather be lazy and not receive "communal appreciation" but get paid the exact same amount of money than some other guy who works his ass off and gets communal appreciation.

    Also, even a lot of the Communists posting here don't seem to agree with the idea of the "greater good." Because if you did then you wouldn't be complaning about being paid too little, since you're doing your job for the "greater good," so why should you care how much you benefit from it as an individual?

  • 6 months ago · #69

    electricpawn

    trysts wrote:
    bigpoison wrote:

    As much as I like electricity, I gotta' agree with trysts on this one.  I do so much unpaid work it isn't even funny.

    Why do I do it?  Because it needs to get done.

    True. Some of the highest paid people where I work do not work nearly as hard as those who don't make as much money. Also, of those who do make pretty much equivalent money some of them just work harder "because it just needs to get done".

    Obviously, there are bad companies, I'll grant you that. Nor do I know the circumstances of the work you do without pay, which shouldn't happen. But gratitude could be considered a form of currency. Maybe you keep your job during lean times when others are let go. Maybe you get more hours than the slackers.

    If you have a skill, you can (usually) sell that ability to another company where you will be compensated better. I have done that more than once. I feel like a fraud saying that since I'm on medical leave atm, but hey, full disclosure.

    Sharon, we should teach our kids to be more aware of ways to improve our communities, but that's not always practical in your work life.

  • 6 months ago · #70

    DrFrank124c

    electricpawn wrote:

    Communism developed as a reaction to the abuses of the early idustrial revolution. Unfortunately, abuses still exist. No system on earth is perfect, but I think Capitalism is superior to Communism for a few simple reasons.

    Competition breeds innovation and efficiency. We need more competition and less of a monopolistic or even Fascist model for our economy in the US. That being said, a planned economy does not provide incentives for productivity or innovation.

    The availability and free flow of capital is essential for start up businesses and for business expansion. Capitalist economies are best at this.

    Finally, I think Communism fails to understand the true motivation for people to work. People aren't motivated by the prospect of living in an egalatarian utopia. They work to live in a nicer house or to save money to send their kids to school. Ambition is not greed and should be encouraged. People should be allowed to distinguish themselves and excel as a result of the quality of work they do.

    I had a discussion with a guy in the maintenance dept. of a factory where I used to work. He argued that everyone in a company shouls be paid the same amount of money. I disagreed because everyone does not contribute equally. I asked him where the incentive to work harder or come up with new ways of doing things would come from if everyone were paid the same regardless of performance. He didn't have an answer.

    Modern corporate America has the same problem as communism. In our modern world salaries are set either by the minimum wage law, the union contract or the pay scale set forth by the corporation itself. If one is innovative in a modern corporation he is liable to get fired because his bosses are set in their ways and want to do things the way they have always done things and new ideas frighten them lest the ideas make things so efficient that they are no longer needed and lose their cushy jobs and nice pension. And it is very difficult for someone to set up his own business based on innovative ideas since renting offices or a store and manufacturing facility is very expensive and venture capital is hard to come by.  

  • 6 months ago · #71

    electricpawn

    macer75 wrote:
    trysts wrote:
    electricpawn wrote:

    Ain't gonna work. I would rather be lazy and not receive "communal appreciation" but get paid the exact same amount of money than some other guy who works his ass off and gets communal appreciation.

     

    I've heard this attitude expressed many times among the more ignorant members of our work force. Frankly, it's one reason all our jobs are going to China and India.

  • 6 months ago · #72

    macer75

    electricpawn wrote:
    macer75 wrote:
    trysts wrote:
    electricpawn wrote:

    Ain't gonna work. I would rather be lazy and not receive "communal appreciation" but get paid the exact same amount of money than some other guy who works his ass off and gets communal appreciation.

     

    I've heard this attitude expressed many times among the more ignorant members of our work force. Frankly, it's one reason all our jobs are going to China and India.

    And it's also the reason why Communism isn't gonna work. Yes, that kind of attitude isn't "correct" in a sense, but the reality is, you can't change it.

  • 6 months ago · #73

    trysts

    macer75 wrote:
     

    Ain't gonna work. I would rather be lazy and not receive "communal appreciation" but get paid the exact same amount of money than some other guy who works his ass off and gets communal appreciation.

    Also, even a lot of the Communists posting here don't seem to agree with the idea of the "greater good." Because if you did then you wouldn't be complaning about being paid too little, since you're doing your job for the "greater good," so why should you care how much you benefit from it as an individual?

    True, there are going to be people who want a monetary incentive for harder work. I work with people like that now. But since there are people who work hard already, more so than their co-workers, then they may find it rewarding to have communal appreciation. Many people place a high value on appreciation from others. It is like an unexpected present.

    It seems like appreciation is of such high value that many of us desire it in life, and really is the reason for working at all--to get money to survive in order to experience things like appreciation from others in life.

    I'm not complaining about being paid too little, I totally make enough to be poor. For us poor, we just want the prices on things to go downLaughing But I'm also not a communist, since I don't really know what that is--I haven't read Lenin, I haven't read enough about it to know?

  • 6 months ago · #74

    macer75

    TheGambitKing wrote:

    After surveying the responses expressed here, most of which are posted by Americans, it's no wonder that the United States is trillions of dollars in debt and going down the tubes as we speak. Whatever happened to John F. Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for you..."? The sense of social responsibility, community, and tolerance is just GONE in many nations today, but I suggest that it all started with the U. S.

    Nope, it started because human nature is selfish. A sane person does not put his country's needs over his own needs and desires. And I'm sure that goes for people in Belgium as well. Leaders of any country need to understand this as the reality, and work with it rather than try to force people to abandon their selfish natures.

    O, and btw, when you say that by looking at the responses here you understand why the US is trillions of dollar in debt, it's like me saying that by looking at your responses I realize why Belgium was never close to being a world power, and currently has no international influence whatsoever. In other words, it's ridiculous. Everyone who's posting here is merely stating his or her own opinion, with no intention whatsoever of representing their countries.

  • 6 months ago · #75

    macer75

    TheGambitKing wrote:
    macer75 wrote:

    Nope, it started because human nature is selfish. A sane person does not put his country's needs over his own needs and desires. And I'm sure that goes for people in Belgium as well. Leaders of any country need to understand this as the reality, and work with it rather than try to force people to abandon their selfish natures.

    You do realise that outside of the United States, this attitude comes across as quite selfish, don't you?

    For instance, in Danmark, there is a system of 'city bikes' which are free and shared by all members of the community. YES, SOME PEOPLE ABUSE THE SYSTEM, but they are a small fraction, and do not cause much harm. On the whole, it is a GOOD THING. Likewise, there are shops which are 'take what you need' from fresh farm produce out in the country (I lived for a few weeks in Scandinavia). Anyways, from what I have read here, I doubt such systems would succeed in the U. S. without a major change in mentality among the populace. I also doubt that you even use public transportation regularly. In most nations, it isn't NECESSARY to 'own your own car' (or even house, for that matter). The 'American Dream' is a myth used to fleece the masses...

    I don't give a crap what my attitude "comes across" as, unlike some politically correct Europeans (and Americans, I admit). It's the reality, and I believe it's a good thing that people are selfish, because that's what allows people to look after themselves even when other people aren't helping them.

    O, and just for the record (although this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of discussion), I do use public transportation regularly, because I don't own my own car.

  • 6 months ago · #76

    macer75

    O, and btw, don't you find it ironic that you're using a US-based website as a platform for disseminating Anti-American propaganda, while simultaneously benefiting from the website's other services (namely chess) for free?

  • 6 months ago · #77

    plutonia

    electricpawn wrote:

    I had a discussion with a guy in the maintenance dept. of a factory where I used to work. He argued that everyone in a company shouls be paid the same amount of money. I disagreed because everyone does not contribute equally. I asked him where the incentive to work harder or come up with new ways of doing things would come from if everyone were paid the same regardless of performance. He didn't have an answer.

     

    He didn't have an answer because the 99% of people who talk about communism don't have a clue what it is, and have never read Marx.

    Marx explained perfectly how this problem will be overcome. To make it really short, it is about a transition phase where people will be paid differently based on how much (quantity and quality) they work; equal salary for all would be unfair for the time being (Marx said that).

    Communism is a philosophy that assumes that our selfishness (e.g. working for our own benefit and not caring about the community) is not intrinsic to the human nature, but it is rather brought upon us by the capitalist society. During the transition phase (socialism) society needs to change, people need to change the way they see the world.

    For example, nobody pays you to tidy up your room, to have a nice garden, or to cook a nice meal for your family. Nobody pays people to do bricolage or program open source, but some people still do it. You do these things because you take pleasure in creating something (and that's in the human's nature, according to Marx).

    It is the capitalist society that *alienated* people from their work. Now people see work as a necessary evil, but it was not meant to be this way. It was the capitalists, specifically with the destruction of craftsmanship and the introduction of the labour market, that made the society "selfish".

    Changing this mentality could happen only with new generations, as the currently living people are just too accustomed to our logic of profit making that would be unable to live in a communist utopia. In other words, communism could not be implemented during our lifetime.

  • 6 months ago · #78

    chess_gg

    I remember reading "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand back in the fifties. I also read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell around the same time.

    Put me down as a capitalist...apparently becoming an extinct minority here. I was raised quite poor. But whatever I've accomplished in life came from motivation, goal setting and plenty of hard work.

    I do believe that we should help the truly disabled...those that can't physically or mentally work. But, we've become a nation where about 50% of the population doesn't pay taxes, 47 million are on food stamps, about 30 million of working age are on social security disability, etc.

    This "something for nothing" attitude is sinking us.

    And, if the OP wants premium features...try something novel and pay for them.

  • 6 months ago · #79

    electricpawn

    TheGambitKing

    Just listen to most of these individuals from the 'right'--their sense of entitlement and the fantasy that they've 'earned' what they have been born into scares me.


    First, I am not a member of "the right wing" in this country. I actually don't care how you categorize my views, but let's make it clear for those whose opinion I do care about.

    Secondly, you don't know me. You don't know what I've earned and what I haven't. You weren't there when I was working weekends to figure out how to fomulate a floor paint that meets regulatory restrictions. You have no knowledge of OEM products I formulated that have sold millions of gallons. These are not things I was "born into," believe me. You say you don't want to come to the US - good! You can try to get your communist utopia up and running in Belgium, but I doubt you'll be able to sell the idea to the Dutch conservatives in that country. Neither will you gain much traction in the more affluent countries if the EU. Just go bak to your Latvian gambit. It suits you.

  • 6 months ago · #80

    TheBigDecline

    chess_gg wrote:

    And, if the OP wants premium features...try something novel and pay for them.

    Can you actually read, you twat ??? Yell


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