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Black to promote in 17 moves after move 4 of the puzzle initial position. (The first 4 puzzle moves are assumed in message #352 above). Tablebase made using FinalGen 1.4.
You can download FinalGen free, I give it two thumbs up!
In the diagram below, the 1st move in the tablebase list was used when there was more than one option. There were ELEVEN possible first moves by White that still results in promotion in 17 for Black (!)
I did this out of my own curiosity, and to try to make an 8-man tablebase, giving FinalGen a try: 5 hours computer time, Tablebase size is 56GB compressed, 201GB uncompressed. Not bad, all things considered! Also, running this to an SSD build-folder surely speeds it up, with all the "disk" activity done during generation.
very interesting. your analasys is great. i like that position so now white can get a draw
No, I'm not joking! "Man" simply does not equal "pieces"!
Source: John Nunn: Rook endings, Batsford 1999.At the moment I cannot quote from it because I'm reorganizing my chess books and it's in a box with other boxes over this box. Too much work to reach it!
I tablebase lingo, X-man, X-men, or X-piece, implies the total number left on the board, including the kings and pawns (if any pawns are left). The description might be a bit of misnomer, I agree, but that's what people call it.
First I thought they changed it. But I found even in Ken Thompson (who first programed TPE) wrote about 5-Man-ending.
Maybe it's really too confusing for people to leave out kings for counting the remaining material for endings ... (I really read about it and I still think it was in one of Nunn's endings books ... Nunn there also has his own convention - ! for only move for a win ...)
Yep, It probably came about due to the description of a tablebase position, for example, KRPKR, so it makes some sense for those who make tablebase algorithms to count up all the "letters" in that as 5-"man".
How is this a draw? Black clearly wins with 2 passed pawns
two passed rook pawns its a draw the king goes to the corner blacks bishop can't control then he sacks his bishop for the h pawn the resulting endgame is a theoretical draw
settle for a draw ? BS White can win !!!
Show me your lines...
You may want to read the rest of the thread. I put it into an endgame tablebase generator and let it run for a day and it determined it to be a forced win.
i guess it won for black the puzzle gave the wrong move for black though and black can avoid avoid the theoretical draw with kc7 rather than grabbing the pawn
waste of pieces
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